suggesion about the dogs!

[zola]

Firstly saskia an apology! Thank you for putting on the forum that KAPSA do in fact vaccinate the street dogs for rabies.
I did watch the video that was also put on the forum, i totally agree with what was said.
I think the only solution can be is that we try to find a big enough piece of land.  It doesn't have to be prime building land just a big piece. Even if necessary rent a piece for a small rent.
There we could keep street dogs. Split the land into 3 areas. 1. for any sick or injured animals 2. for new arrivals 3. for all of the dogs once they have been accessed.
The new arrivals go through a massive sheep dip style bath! Are wormed, checked for mites etc just a general maintenace by the vet, their details recorded, if they are known to belong to someone then that person once informed should collect the animal and be made to pay a small fine. This fine would be to try and raise money for dogs which aren't owned and to help with the vets costs.
Any sick animals or injured animals should be put to sleep depending on what illness they have.
Any really aggressive dogs that don't mix with the other animals should also be put to sleep as all of these dogs will be together and fighting would only make matters worse.
Volunteers could have numerous duties from collecting the dogs, errecting fences making sun shelters making a couple of buildings for the vet to use and a kitchen,  providing beds etc etc just generally looking after the animals.
Dustbins could be given to every resturant to collect scraps in to feed the dogs with daily, feed them in the winter with a feeding program.
There are lots of ways this could be done, it won't be cheap as a van would be needed but i think if something constructive along these lines was put to the Mayor or belediye they may help us as i think it's time to act on all of the complaints that are made.
If we could get some land i think it would be a start, the details and how it will run can come later and if people made constructive comments along these lines i think it could help everyone to come up with a proper plan.
I also think that KAPSA should represent all of us as they have been trying to sort the problem out so far on everyones behalf in vain.
Please don't start arguing amongst ourselves try and think of ways to get this problem sorted. No one wants the animals to come to any harm we just need to be responsible for the ones we have.


Linkback: https://www.enjoykalkan.com/forum/index.php?topic=7657.0

[Buster]

Concerning Rabies
I was bitten by a dog in Kalkan last year and it is a real concern to me, with so many dogs in Kalkan it could happen again and I don’t fancy an injection in the stomach
As I understand it dogs that are housed and socialise with one or two other pets in the house should be vaccinated about every three years.
Dogs that roam free, socialise with many other dogs and have access to open countryside should be vaccinated every year.

Does anybody know if the street dogs in Kalkan are vaccinated every year?

Should have also said I think Chrissie baby idea is a good one, could I suggest Saribelan as a site for the dog kennels as there are very good circular walks in that area that could be used to exercise the dogs.  Another fund raiser to support the Kennel would actually be a boarding kennels attached for expats who would like to know that they could return to the UK and that their dogs were being well cared for whilst they were away.
It might also encourage people who live in Kalkan for part of the year to actually take in a street dog as they would be able to donate dog food or money to maintain the dog in a safe environment until they next return.

I would be happy to be part of a committee of local expats to approach the kalkan Mayor with a view to looking into this proposal in greater detail.


Regards Buster

[kevincat99]

Hi Chrissy Baby at last that sounds like a sensible solution but it would need to be out of Kalkan otherwise everyone would complain about barking etc NIMBY   - otherwise the job is yours 

[Random]

Hi Chrissy Baby - Are you suggesting that all the strays are rounded up and put into this place? Only I know that Kapsa has explained somewhere that dogs from surrounding areas would just move in to fill the gaps left and that there would be many more dogs dumped because people would think that they will be looked after in a nice cosy dogs home.
Also, where are all these volunteers you speak of? It seems to me that there is a small band of really active Kapsa volunteers who are already overstretched, do you think that if there were a new dogs home lots of people would suddenly come and offer help? Yes there maybe an increase of volunteers at the beginning but I'm sure people would get bored pretty quickly and give up, leaving Kapsa to not only have to run the place but also to have to run around catching all the new dogs that have turned up because of it.
Also what would be the ongoing cost of such a project?
Chrissy Baby- if you really want to help why don't you offer your experience and knowledge to Kapsa? You could do so much. Of all the dogs in Kalkan probably a tiny percentage are actually dangerous- with your training you could help Kapsa identify them, assess which ones could be rehabilitated and those that cannot could be removed!
Whatever the critics of Kapsa may say I do know that Kapsa does not want dangerous dogs on the streets, but there is a difference between dogs that bite and those that bark!

[zola]

Buster the rules and regulations on having a boarding kennels here are very strict. I have spoken to vets and had all the paperwork on this subject and unless you are minted you are out of luck!
I am more than willing to do my bit to help run a safe place for these animals, lets face it what else would i be doing.
I am happy to at least try to get some thing along these lines off the ground and to put in time and effort to give Kalkan what i think they need.
Everyone here knows what the problem is and we need to work together to solve this problem.
Get the land and i know for one that the support will be there, if it's not as much as we would hope for then i am sure that the people who are passonate about this issue will come up trumps, i for one will support it if we are allowed to proceed. Don't know where the spell checker is so excuse my poor spelling!!!!
I think the dogs should be rounded up at least once a week, but if we did this it's only to establish who the animals actually belong to. With this information we can then address the problem in a good way.
Some will be destroyed, but on that note if pups are dumped in kalkan they could actually be homed ,the problem at the moment is no body wants a dog that they can't take out for a walk!! Like me, i want to walk the dog but can't!! Input on this topic is the answer, say what you think, don't be put off, you may or may not live here but all comments should be taken into account.
We need a starting point, and i for one would be happy to be a volunteer, all year round!

[tiger]

Chrissy Baby, I am really impressed with your proposal, I personally would offer my help with this project 100 per cent!

[zola]

KAPSA do you want a reply from these people? I go on the forum, knowing that everyone knows who i am. I don't go under a fluffy name, everyone here knows who i am! If i am saying some thing wrong then tell me! If you want the support of the people, tell them what is needed. Say what you want! What you say may not be what we all want to hear but say something! Unless we get a picture of what we all want we can go no further. Identify your self and let us all make up our own minds. Once again it is not a witch hunt, we are all intitled to our own opinions, if we are wrong then we can hold our hands up but we cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. Somebody may come up with a solution. Be bold go for you life.

[Alfaman]

Random said:
"Whatever the critics of Kapsa may say I do know that Kapsa does not want dangerous dogs on the streets, but there is a difference between dogs that bite and those that bark!"
Wish I could tell the difference in advance when approached by a barking dog!
In my eight visits to Kalkan, the last in September 2010, my impression is that there are more dogs on the streets, more are aggressive, and more seem to congregate in packs or groups.
As well as neutering and return, some reduction in numbers is needed by removal to municipal kennels.

[headroom]

I'm finding it hard to believe! This topic under another heading was locked off, it is obvious that there will never be a consensus on the topic of dogs, and there is no definitive conclusion as to a solution so please can we just let it rest, it is becoming boring.

[zola]

Headroom, this is the kid of reaction that gets a topic locked.  If you find the subject boring don't read it any further!
There are some people here that want to put a constructive comment on this subject. Don't get it locked and then moan about it. Subject closed as i won't be drawn into a petty argument!!

[Enjoy Kalkan]

I'm more than happy for dog related threads to remain if they are reasoned discussions. As chrissybaby says please let's not turn them into trivial rubbish or they will get locked/removed

[spinal tap]

The proposal for a dog pound is a great one, well done Chrissie.  No one would like the idea of culling and one would hope that we don't return to the dark days of poisoning.  Thank you EnjoyKalkan for keeping this on going as long as it remains constructive. I think this is a doable thing, KAPSA need to be involved and I am sure that if this is put in place it will have positive outcome for Kalkan, we all got together to try to sort out a problem that lets face it is not going to go away.  Re dogs being sent to municipal kennels, the only problem here is that these kennels often refuse the dogs because they don't come from the immediate vicinity. On a positive note, if restaurants collected scraps for dogs it does not eat into KAPSA's budget and very good PR for these restaurants.   If someone wants to adopt a street dog they will have one collective place to view them. I am sure people will get behind this and not leave this to KAPSA who do a sterling job. I really think this is a viable solution.

[Denners]

I like this suggestion and if KAPSA would get behind it and promote it to the Mayor I think it would get a lot of support from residents in Kalkan. I'm sure more discussion is needed to develop the idea. Maybe KTLN could run this idea as part of its poll on street animals ?

[amber]

The problem with dogs homes in Turkey is that they are just not the same as the ones we all know in the UK,for a multitude of reasons.
Maybe it would be helpful for Chrissy to visit Kas dogs home to see and hear the realities of such a place here.
The Turkish government is moving away from seeing these as any sort of solution to the countrywide street animal problem and would like all municipalities to have a temporary shelter that would work in conjunction with an active neuter and return programme.Kapsa is and always has been more that willing to work with the belidye and discussions are currently taking place.

[Kalamar Bay]

And on it goes..................

Congratulations Kapsa on your fundraising achievement the other sunday. Sometimes it may not seem like it, but your efforts are greatly appreciated by most of those who cannot be there to assist on a more regular basis.

[misty]

Would KAPSA be able to fund a dogs home which would appear to be a continued grow in numbers requiring maybe full time vets kennel workers etc etc Once the word is out would not people from far flung villages start to dump unwanted dogs in Kalkan increasing the problem many fold ??

[saskia]

Thank you Kalamar Bay for your support.

Regarding a dogs home, there is a reason why the Turkish government is now changing its policy of rounding up dogs and putting them into 'shelters’ – It simply doesn’t work. There are literally thousands of dogs in municipal pounds/shelters all over Turkey, in one shelter alone in Istanbul there are over 5,000 dogs and yet every area still has its own stray dog problem! The Turkish government now wants every municipality to implement a programme of neuter and return.
As to Howmads comments

Some time ago it was posted that almost 4 tons of dog food was used by KAPSA. In a short time it could be 6 or 8 or 10 tons. How many dogs can Kalkan support,

A dogs home would result in us having to buy far more dog food rather than less. For one thing we only feed the dogs and cats in the winter, we do not feed them in the summer as there is ample food for them from tourists, restaurants etc. Besides which what we give them is only to supplement their diets, they still have to find food elsewhere and they do. If we put all the stray dogs in a dogs home they would have no other source of food other than what we feed them so we would have to feed them more food and 12 months of the year instead of 4-5 months as we do now. This winter we donated food to the dogs home in Kaş because they couldn’t find enough bread to feed the dogs on.
We would also then have to feed all the dogs that will move into the empty spaces created by us rounding up the current street dogs and placing them in the shelter. It has been well documented by experts doing research into stray dog management around the world that if you remove all the dogs from an area as long as there is a source of food they will be replaced by other dogs. The chances are that many of the dogs moving in will not have been neutered and the sudden abundance of food they find here will enable them to produce and raise far more puppies than they would say in the forests of Akbel from which probably most of them will have come.
So we will have more dogs to capture, neuter and place in the dogs home. But because we  would be spending so much more on food for those in the shelter we would have far less to spend on neutering. We would probably not be able to go out to the villages to neuter the dogs there as we do now, and we would not be able to offer free neutering for dogs that villagers bring to us as we do currently.
Also fewer villagers would be willing to have dogs neutered because they would no longer feel the need because now if their dog gives birth they don’t need to worry the pups can just be taken to the dogs home!
Of the 200 and something dogs that we have had neutered in the 3 years since Kapsa was founded well over half have come from and been taken back to villages around Kalkan. If these had not been neutered chances are that many of their offspring would have ended up being dumped in Kalkan. No not because of Kapsa’s winter feeding programme but because people know that where there are tourists there will be a supply of scraps of food for stray animals.

I hope this goes some way to explaining why although a dogs home at first glance sounds like a good solution to the problem it would actually make things worse.

So Misty you are quite right, but before you go back to suggesting a cull (which is illegal in Turkey) you might be interested to look at this link http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/401/turkish-cats-and-dogs/managing-street-dogs-cats-turkey/

Another thing to consider is would Kapsa be able to raise as much money as they do now? Probably not because out of sight is out of mind, people donate to Kapsa because they can see the animals and thay can see where their money is going!

[kalkanbelle]

It might help a bit if the owners of dogs who let them wander around the streets are held accountable.  KAPSA must have an idea of who some of these dogs belong to and if they could try to get the Mayor/Belidiye to take action against these irresponsible owners it might make a difference.  Any dog or packs of dogs that display unprovoked aggressive behaviour should be reported to KAPSA or the Belidiye straight away so that they can deal with it.  I also think the idea of training some of them that are suitable for police dogs is a good idea, perhaps they could be used to help track down burglars?

[zola]

My comments on the forum have never suggested a dog’s home, this would never be a solution to the ever increasing number of street dogs.  A shelter/pound would be nearer the mark. If Istanbul has a shelter with 5,000 dogs in it then I would suggest that the person running it hasn’t a clue! How can anyone with an ounce of sense see that as a solution? I have said there would have to be a process of elimination by ways of a lethal injection. First the sick and injured,the aggressive. The really elderly.  The shelter is not a doggie hotel for all of the dogs in the country. There would have to be a time limit on how long a dog stays . If all efforts to find a home for a dog don’t end in a positive way then eventually it would have to be put down. People may come to dump pups, they have a better chance of a proper home but if by the time they are old enough to be spayed or castrated, rather then spending money on a dog nobody wants  and wasting more resources, put them down. Every dog this way gets a fair chance of a proper home but sadly not all of them will appeal. Helping in the villages is a good thing, giving the vets and KAPSA a chance to talk to these people about how a responsible person  looks after their animals, this way the animals are monitored and will have traceability, this way we can actually establish who actually owns the dog. If it gets rounded up and the person involved will not pay the fine or does not want it back, put it down, this way its the owner that has sealed its fate not the shelter. I think that there are proper rules in Turkey which a lot of places do adhere to ,just maybe not Kalkan! it seems they are just not interested. What is needed is to get the legal rules out, dust them off and to start enforcing them, we may then just get somewhere. Maybe a meeting set up to have a proper discussion on the dogs where every one can voice their opinion without being shot down in flames, or becoming a free for all, but for Turkish and English as lets face it we all couldn’t go and read a Turkish forum so why do we think they can read ours, the Turkish could also say what they want doing about this problem or if they think there is one even!