Double standards ??? Discuss.

[Lantana]

Javmariesar

Why are you so keen to purse this.? My point is that I, and I am sure most EK members, are not guilty of double standards here. My post was not about double standards amongst Turks in Turkey. I have simply tried to point out that our behaviour is largely irrelevant to most Turks because Turkish society is very different to society in the UK.

Nevertheless, the fact that we take the trouble to try and understand something of the culture, perhaps learn a few words of the language, think carefully about what we wear in public and how we behave does signify that we are trying to be sensitive about the differences. That is generally appreciated and valued. 

There are many things I would not do here that I would do in the UK but again that does not mean I am guilty of double standards. It appears to me that you may be suggesting that adapting  your behaviour according to  the situation you find yourself in is somehow a double standard.

I do not behave in the same way in my own home as I do in the homes of friends - a double standard? No, just courtesy and consideration for others. That is what EK members seem to demonstrate, courtesy and consideration. If we were not prepared to consider the feelings and expectations of others, life would be pretty miserable for everyone.

Lantana

[felicity]

Well said Lantana - I agree wholeheartedly with you and would also like an explanation of why Jav is SO very keen to elicit responses....from what it sounds like - you certainly appear to want to ensnare people - so go ahead - ensnare me- coz I am (with lantana) guilty of double standards by doing things (or more likely NOT doing things) in turkey or turkish people''s homes out of respect to them and their cultures that I would do at home - purely adopting very slightly different behavour out of courtesy and consideration for others particularly as I am a guest in their country - I feel that is the least that I should do...so yes - guilty of double standards - I guess....    (still bewildered by the question...)

[Blue Lizard]

Quite agree Lantana ,and put far better than i ever could.

[jayne]

Jav, I think the problem with your post is that I had no idea what you are asking. What are the double standards you seem to be implying we are all guilty of and do you think that''s good or bad? It would really help if you gave us your own view and were less cryptic in your posts.

I started the topless sunbathing thread becuase I was genuuinely concerned that the behaviour of some of the guests round our pool was causing offence to the Turkish people that work there. I have never sunbathed topless and even if I''d let it all hang out in the Med when it was still considered fashionable I wouldn''t do it anywhere in Turkey, so if that means I have double standards then fine. I don''t think it''s anything to be ashamed of, it''s just showing respect for the values and beliefs of the country you are are a guest of. I also also don''t swear in front of my mother because she would find it offensive, but I might when she''s not around, so I guess I''m guilty again.

Sticking to your own principles or code of behaviour regardless of where you are and who you might offend is not a virtue in my eyes, its just ignorance.

[kalkanfan]

Being considerate or sympathetic to your environment does not imply double standards - in a way it is the opposite.  If your aim is not to offend then you take into account how offence may be given in one place when not in another and adapt you behaviour accordingly.  I believe is is not a question of double standards but simply being aware of local sensitivities and trying to behave in as polite a way as possible.

[sally]

Well put, Jayne. I too am unsure of what Jav is getting at.

[Brooksie]

Derya
Can I borrow the book when I come over?
I would like to find out more about Turkish Society having only really experienced Kalkan and other areas of the country that has frequent foreign visitors

[turkeyfan]

I''ve just ordered the book from www.play.com and I think it was £6.99

[fidimax]

Hiya all,A lot of visitors to kalkan maybe first timers to turkey,so they wont know the "rights and wrongs"
related to the local customs, my visit in sept will be my 6th time and Ithink I have just scatched the surface,I have picked up bits to say in turkish,but I understand more than I can say back to someone.
when I visit another country I will buy a book on that country,but its not the same as being in that country
time after time,If i am with locals I feel I can pick up more by watching and listening.
As for the gay bars,I agree with Mr Lizard,you cant comment on something that, as far as I know,doesnt
exist.


                                                       Neil.

[hel66]

I really don''t think Turkish people really mind one way or the other how we behave, I find them all very friendly and open minded. As long as we''re not breaking any laws, I think they are very accomodating to our foreign ways.

[misty]

I think based on the hornets nest that Islam and gays issues stir up when discussed, it could be a very long time before we see any gay bars in Kalkan..........

[Mrs B]

I think Javmariesar are asking why we all felt we wanted to discuss topless sunbathing issues, but not whether there is a gay bar in Kalkan.
To be honest, seeing as the first topic was a question asking our views, and the second topic was a question asking for a closed ''yes or no'' answer, well...theres the reason.

As for whether i have double standards...well, that could be a yes or a no depending on who is reading my views and what their views are on the subject.

I consider peoples sexuality to be their own choice to do with as they will...makes no difference to me.
What does make a difference to me is how people conduct themselves in public, regardless of their sexuality, or their desire to practice toplessness, nakedness or disrespecting themselves or those around them.
I don''t like to see anyone getting very intimate in public, no matter what their sexuality, just as i don''t like to see intimate bits of peoples bodies being paraded around public streets.
I don''t consider myself a prude...i work in situations on a daily basis where i come into contact with nakedness, very intimate personal care etc, but i do consider myself to have respect... for myself and others.

Oh, and a couple of my male gay friends go to various parts of Turkey regularly (like the original poster on the gay bars thread, i recall) and they tell me they find lots of interest from Turkish people about their lives, as well as thier sexuality.

So, there we go...theres my answer. 

[kevincat99]

Hi Jav
Is the question would foreigners do things in Turkey that they would not do in the UK or [ii] do they do things in Turkey that they should not do in a Muslim society where ever that may be??
Kalkan and the big tourist resorts are totally unrepresentative of all of Turkey and cater for foreigners wants, as long as they generate jobs and money for the local economy - but they do not reflect Turkey as a whole
When the Imam calls for prayers, how many Turks in Kalkan do you see closing their businesses and go to the mosque ??  Go to Konya or in "un-tourist Turkey" and the whole place closes down for half an hour as everyone goes to the mosque - go into a lokanta there and they will not serve alcohol so they practice what they preach literally , even though it looses them revenue.
People seem to talk about respecting Turkish ways, but it is generally the ways of more Westernised Turks, who generally serve the tourists,
Would people still come here to Turkey if overall it became more fundamentalist and they were not allowed to wear bikinis on the beach , couldn''t obtain alcohol etc etc........??

[jayne]

kevincat99

It hasn''t stopped people going to Dubai and behaving in exactly the same way they would in Ibiza, despite the tension it''s causing.

I think I''m right in saying that most Islamic fundamentalism has its roots in westernised countries. Why is that do you think?

[fidimax]

Hi mrs B,the question was about why so little response to the post by Mr Bodrum ,"are there any gay bars
in kalkan" and as far as I know there are no gay bars in kalkan, so not many replies.


                                      Neil.

[Mrs B]

To be honest, seeing as the first topic was a question asking our views, and the second topic was a question asking for a closed ''''yes or no'''' answer, well...theres the reason.

Thats what i thought, Neil....and thats why theres been few replies.
One was a question asking for debate, the other was a question on its own. 

[kalcamp]

Hello Jayne,
 Where do you get the idea that islamic fundamentalism has it''s roots in westernized countries?

[jayne]

kalcamp, Sorry it was a bit of a sweeping statement that I didn''t really word correctly. From what I have read, Islamic fundamentalisn (the political kind not passive) came about because of western imperialism and escalated with the introduction of democracy as it is in direct conflict with shariah law - Pakistan for example.

I''m certainly no expert on the subject, so feel free to enlighten me.

[Em1]

Hi Kevincat
I would be happy to visit Turkey if I could not wear a bikini on the beach...but no alcohol! Blimey that''s a tough one!
Em

[rat2]

Hi Javmariesar

This is my first post on this forum so I expect to get ''flamed''.

Like some others I don''t really understand your insistant and repeated question, but I''d say the answer is ''NO''. I don''t think I have double standards and I often criticise presidents, MPs etc. who clearly do. I do, however, try to modify my behaviour and responses to others like any other human with a desire to stay alive and ''free''.

I have spent about 50 years of my life travelling and working in most parts of the world and have always tried to respect other cultures. I have found that Muslim ''abstinence'' is usually inversely proportional to the distance from Mecca - but that''s none of my business and not my problem. It was once my problem when I was captain of a private BAC 1-11 belonging to an alcoholic sheik based in Jeddah - I was constantly at risk of having enforced surgery if any of the hidden bottles of Johnny Walker on the aircraft had been found.

I''m personally against topless bathing: I do think it is disrespectful to Muslims even if they don''t mind. The main reason though is that if an attractive young lady chooses to flash her bits on the beach, I''m afraid that, even though I''m a happily married man, I still have red blood in my veins and I will look - that tends to cause offence, particularly with jealous husbands (see second para re staying alive). As for the not so young and not so attractive ladies I see on Calis beach - yuck! (but at least I don''t have a problem with the husbands).

I haven''t a clue about gay bars. I don''t drink but I think it would be a shame if there were - I don''t think minority groups should have to be segregated - as long as they don''t bother me I don''t mind where they go. I have a few gay friends and they always love and enjoy Kalkan.

Generally speaking, I think it is my usual lack of ''double standards'' that tends to get me into trouble at home or when asked my opinion. I''m a fairly typical Yorkshireman and always speak my mind. I do not lie to people (see para 2 re presidents, MPs etc.) to gain favour - the best I can manage is to sometimes (rarely) say nothing.

Regards,

r2