Double standards ??? Discuss.

[The Reds]

Hello all,

Before I start I would like to make it clear I am not having a go at anyone, so please don''t take offence. I would really just like to know what peoples views are on a particular subject. Are we guilty of double standards and do we put a Western,Christian,European slant on things Eastern,Muslim and Turkish.
There were two recent topics that interested me and I wanted to see what you the members thought.
A couple of days ago I was getting into the topic about `topless sunbathing`, I found it interesting not necessarily because of the topic but because of the EK members personal responces. It was pretty much a 95% against and 5% for personal choice, outcome. The main reason given, but not exclusively, was that it showed a disrespect to Turkish ( and Muslim) sensibilities. This tread had loads of responses until it started going off track and was locked. The views were interesting and everyone had really strong ones.
The second topic was `gay bars in Kalkan`. Again I found it interesting not because of the topic but the response. (or lack of it).

What I am trying to get at is that there are a lot of things that we do here that are against Turkish/Muslim sensibilities. Topless sunbathing (nudity), homosexuality, drinking alcohol and eating pork to name a few. I am sure there are others. Are some OK and others not? Or do we have double standards.

Hope I have not offended anyone just would like to know what you think.





Linkback: https://www.enjoykalkan.com/forum/index.php?topic=2275.0

[holidayfever]

I think when in Rome etc etc.
Yes I drink in Turkey however if there was an alchol ban I wouldnt drink, and as for pork I dont eat it in Turkey mainly because I dont see it and secondly because there are many other good choices.
And topless well no that is because I respect Turkey and myself as an older women. This like you is my opinion so please dont shout me down if you dont agree with me.

[sally]

I don''t go topless anywhere.

I don''t eat pork in Turkey because I have never found pork in Turkey.

I drink alcohol in Turkey because it is freely available where I go in Turkey (and many of my Turkish friends will join me with a drink).

Where ever I travel  I have a great respect for the mores/customs of that place. I am a guest in the country I visit and it is simply a matter of manners to adjust ones behaviour in order not to give offence.

"Manners mayketh man (and woman)".

[Enjoy Kalkan]

Hi

Just to let you know this topic shall be closely monitored by EKSafety to ensure the mutual member respect policy is adhered to. All posts and opinions hold equal weight and should be respected as exactly that, opinions.

Could turn out to be an interesting topic this.....

[Mercimek]

Well someone told me that the Koran says you shouldn''t do anything that causes harm / offence to others-I am prepared to be corrected here, but that is a reasonable standard to follow & isn''t necessarily about religion.
Therefore if you drink it and don''t cause offence to others that is ok, which I think in the bracket that most people who drink here alcohol fall into. Likewise sexual practices ''behind closed doors'' won''t offend.

However yesterday when I saw someone walking down the street in just a bikini in the middle of Kalkan I was most offended-and it was me who said to the Turkish person I was with that I think it is terrible, and unnecessary. I can''t imagine if it was ever warm enough the same person would walk down a high street in the UK in a bikini. I feel the same about topless sunbathing in public, particularly in Turkey where it can offend people who are used to more conservative dressing.

[kalcamp]

 Actually Mohamed said moslems must not drink at all, ever. This is one of the few things that separates Islam from Christianity.
 Of course we maintain our western perspectives, when it suits us we say we upsetting local culture and as you say Jav, 95% of people don''t like topless sunbathing and give their reason as upsetting local culture.
 I wonder how many of those people would stop drinking alcohol in a moslem country because it goes against local culture.
If you feel strongly about local sensativities, stop supporting places that serve alcohol and help fallen moslems not to succumb to our own western double standards

[Blue Lizard]

is Raki not looked upon as a "Turkish" drink? drunk by many turks young and old? also i think the thread about Gay bars in kalkan had little response because there are none..

[Pete]

The thing to remember about Turkey is that it is has a Secular Constitution. This should seperate Religion from Politics.
Turkey is a free country with regard Religion, albeit that Islam is the most practised/popular religion. There are a lot of Turks who would say that they do not practise or believe in any Religion at all.
However, what one can say is that Turkey is a Country that follows a Muslim way of life, the same as you can say that the UK follows a Christian way of life.
As a visitor one should respect the beliefs of the country you are visiting and not expect everything to be the same as back home. However, I also think that as you are a foreigner and have different customs and practises you should also be shown tolerance by the local people.
Lets face it, it does not matter where you come from on this planet, we all know right from wrong and decency from lewd behaviour.
I have to deal with people from all over the world in the course of a days work and have found that all you need do is explain yourself clearly, show respect to the individual, treat everyone equal and have a good sense of humour. The same applies when visiting another country.

[MartynE]

Well said, Pete - I agree with you 100%. Nothing to add really!

[holidayfever]

Well done Pete said in one. Dont see how anyone could disagree with that.

[The Reds]

Hello all,
I am really hoping some more of the people who had really strong opinions in the topless sunbathing topic will give us their take on the double standard issue. But thanks for all the people who have responded so far.

These responces got me thinking, are we judging what Turkey is all about from our experience of Kalkan, a place geared to serve western holiday makers and property owners. I have not had the opportunity to travel extensively around Turkey as yet, (waiting to get car sorted out) so I cannot give an honest answer. But is what acceptable in Kalkan acceptable in truly Turkish areas of the country.(the majority of the land area/away from resorts). So therefore are the views so far posted biased, best guess or misinformed. Or are they the overwhelming experience of you the members, have you traveled the hidden Turkey where non Muslim''s or non Turks are seldom seen?

Seems so far only a minority seems to think their is a double standard in existence.

[Chucky]

Not wanting to dilute your thread but I would also be interested in people''''''''s comments on "different pricing". See this report -
http://www.voicesnewspaper.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2130
Joan
(Link amended, hopefully will now work!!)

[Blue Lizard]

Joan..link won''t open! ....error page

[Chucky]

Oooops, I have amended it, try again!!
Joan

[The Reds]

Hello all,

Was hoping for a bit more of a response, theres over 500 hits but only a few members have contributed. Sorry if its a bit boring for you all, but I thought it was interesting. Since no ones jumping in I hope no one minds if I say something.
Just really wanted to say that I completely agree with everything that Pete has said, I don`t think anyone could otherwise. However with all due respect, I was posing the question about whether we have double standards. Not whether we should all live together in universal harmony and respect each other for what we are, which of course we should.

[kalkan wife]

Having travelled recently to both Izmir and Istanbul one thing that I noticed was the level of obvious sophistication of the local population. I could have been sitting in any European city centre watching the throngs of ''city'' workers streaming into work (albeit they had emerged from a ferry rather than a station). The coffee bars, chic seaside lunch venues and stylish restaurants were a pleasure to visit. I plan to tour eastern Turkey and maybe the Black sea coast over winter, I don''t know what I will find but prepared for just about anything.

[kalcamp]

Not sure what your saying with regard to ''double standards'' here kalkan wife, are you saying we should treat Turkey like we would any other European city and therefore accept the standards set by Europe, which means the freedom to chose how you sunbathe, or are you saying as do 95% of forum users, that Turkey should be treated as a separate entity from Europe and adopt a more conservative attitude when sunbathing?

[Lantana]

Kalkan wife has pointed out an important factor in this debate, which is that Kalkan is in no way representative of Turkey in General.  Turkey is an enormous country.  There are cities of fifteen million plus inhabitants (Istanbul) which are as sophisticated as any city in the world, and where behaviour (on the surface) is equally sophisticated.

There are villages in central and eastern Anatolia where the public manifestations of behaviour, customs and standards have not changed in the last century and where that behaviour would, to western eyes, be considered backward and primitive.  

Underpinning every level of Turkish society, whether in a city or village, is the concept of honour. Without an understanding of that concept, it is impossible to make value judgements about what is, or is not, acceptable within Turkish society  - and what would constitute a double standard. Honour is about family, it is not about society. The concept of the collective good of society does not work here. If you are wondering why the shopkeepers, hoteliers etc do not ''get together'' to resolve the taxi situation, you need to understand that here, action takes place within family groups, not within the wider society.

Disputes are settled within the family, standards are set within the family, moral judgements are made within the family. Outside the family, much of what happens is irrelevant.

In Turkey each year there are over two hundred officially recorded ''honour killings'' -  where women (never men) are murdered by family members because they have brought dishonour to the family.   Scores more honour killings are hushed up, recorded as suicides etc.  Recently, a teenage girl was murdered by her uncle because she had brought dishonour to her family, her ''crime'' was asking a local radio station to play a request for a boy she liked. (for more information on the concept of honour and honour killings, this report, commissioned by the UN, is invaluable - http://www.unfpa.org/upload/lib_pub_file/676_filename_honourkillings.pdf )

In essence, we as foreign tourists or residents count for little in terms of making an impact on Turkish society, much of what we do is irrelevant unless our behaviour actually impinges on honour.

In a village like this, dependent on tourism for its economic well being, a blind eye will be turned to all sorts of practices which in other places would cause offence. For example, restaurants offering pork products on their menu, women walking through the village in very scanty attire, heavy drinking, lewd behaviour. As long as it is only foreigners doing this, it is usually tolerated even though generally not approved of.

However, even here, the standard of behaviour of Turk on Turk or between Turks and foreigners who are regarded as part of this society is very different to the behaviour shown to the average tourist. As an example, few Turkish males living here, whom we would regard as friends, would come to visit me in my home if my husband were not present, since this would dishonour my husband.

A British friend who has lived here for many years and is married to a Turk always says ''western clothes don''t mean western values'' - the more you learn about Turkey, the more you realise that we, as foreigners, have very little grasp of the complexity of Turkish society.

What we see of Turkish life through our experiences in Kalkan is not representative. In much of eastern Turkey girls receive little or no schooling. Thirty per cent of all Turks over the age of twenty five cannot read or write. Thirty per cent of women are illiterate. This is an insufficient level of education to establish and maintain a real democracy, to elect officials who will work for the benefit of society in general, rather than their own profit.  (as we can so clearly see in Kalkan)

If you want to learn more, there are many excellent books available, an internet search will also bring up a wide selection of very informative articles.

Lantana
 

[Derya]

An excellent novel that highlights some of the points made by Lantana is Bliss by Zulfu Livaneli. The book has been translated into english with the original title being Mutluluk. In addition the novel was made into a highly respected film here in Turkey. It deals with the subject of honour killings as well as other present day issues depicting the divide between city and village, educated and uneducated and rich and poor.

[The Reds]

Hello all,

I know on forums like this you can easily be misunderstood or not make it very clear to people what exactly your getting at, what the point your trying to make is. Maybe I am guilty of that. Sorry if I am repeating myself, but with the exception of one person, nobody seems to be answering the question!

I was interested in the responses to some topics on EK. I was interested on whether EK members who contributed to these topics considered whether there was a double standard in existence. I was not asking whether there was a double standard in the Republic of Turkey,with Muslim Turks, Turkish business or expats in general. Just whether the EK members who contributed to a specific topic, thought there was a double standard in their behavior.

Latana your post is very good and very informative,you obviously know a hell of a lot about Turkey. But I was enquiring about our, (EK members) possible double standards not about other people. If you want to start a new thread on Turkish/Muslim double standards I would certainly contribute.

Again, I want to say this is not some sort of cunning trap I have planned to snare EK members into. I would just like to know whether you think we(not them!) have double standards. It really does not matter if you say YES or NO, but the interesting bit is your reasoning behind your statement.

Jav