Topless sunbathing - is is appropriate?

[Lantana]

 I have been very impressed with the cultural sensitivity of the vast majority of forum contributors as demonstrated by the comments on this thread. It is unacceptable to be topless in a public area in a country which although secular is still muslim. The visitor who goes topless is in effect saying ''I care nothing for your moral values or sensibilities, what I want to do overrides any sensitivities you might have''.

For the past week, I have been visiting a beach which is entirely Turkish and populated almost entirely by Turks on holiday from Istanbul and Ankara, two of Turkey''s most modern cities. Not only has there been absolutely no incidences of topless sunbathing, there have been a number of women in the sea in full Islamic swimming suits, which cover them from the head to the feet. Turkish women would not ever sunbathe or swim topless in public in Turkey.

other As others have already pointed out, topless sunbathing in public in Turkey creates the impression that the person in question not only has no respect for others but far more importantly, no respect for themselves and that impression can lead to very grave consequences.

Some years ago, a very respectable, impeccably behaved British woman was very savagely attacked here by a man with a knife. Her injuries were almost fatal. Whilst all local people were horrified and shocked by the attack, there was nevertheless an undercurrent of feeling that these things were far more likely to happen to British women because of how some of them behaved in public.

Of course this is totally wrong and any woman should be safe from violence no matter how she behaves but perhaps those British women who are determined to demonstrate their modernity by going topless in public should pause to think about the bigger picture.  Everyone makes generalisations and the less you know about the moral standards of another culture, the more likely it will be that your generalisations are completely incorrect. So some Brits make incorrect generalisations which  state that nobody in Turkey minds topless sunbathing. Asa consequence of this,  many Turks make incorrect generalisations about the behaviour of all British women.   Many of those generalisations are far worse than saying we are ''easy'', they are unprintable. 

If you want to sunbathe topless in public, why go to a Muslim country for your holiday?  There are plenty of other countries where this is acceptable. 
Lantana

[sally]

How very well you have summed it all up, Lantana.  I have a great respect for both your eloquence & sensitivity to the  cultural mores of Turkey. Thank you.

[marking]

Lantana.
I assume your not a Germaine Greer fan then?

[Lantana]

Marking

From your comment, I think you may have completely missed my point. Could you explain please?
Lantana

[marking]

Lantana,
  I''d like to ask you not to patronise me,
clearly I understand your points as you understand mine

[sally]

Must admit to not getting the reference to Greer myself, either.

[Cosetta]

Germaine Greer is an avid women''s liber.  Her most famous book is ''The Female Eunuch''.  She believes women should give up celibacy and monogamy and any form of ''repression'' dictated from outside. Here is one of her well-known sayings:

''Bras are a ludicrous invention," she wrote, "but if you make bralessness a rule, you''re just subjecting yourself to yet another repression."

[sally]

Yes, I''ve read the Female Eunuch, Cosetaa but I still don''t understand why it''s relevant to Lantana''s post 

[kalkan4eva]

I totally understand that women going topless is offensive, but why is a bare-chested man? You see many young Turks in Kalkan on their scooters, bare-chested with their t-shirt tied around their necks..so if a British man walked down the street dressed the same, why would this be seen as disrespectful?

[Cosetta]

Sally, Marking''s comment isn''t relevant to Lantana''s posting.  I think he was implying that she is perhaps not an ardent supporter of feminism and throwing away bras. But you would have to ask him.  Lantana did not get a comprehensible answer, she got another irrelevant answer from him.

[Lantana]

Thank you Sally and Cosetta for helping to clarify why I wrote what I did about Marking''s comment. As my post was entirely about cultural sensitivity and nothing to do with female emancipation, I was puzzled as to why Marking made this comment. My question to Marking was genuine. I wasn''t trying to be clever and certainly didn''t mean to be patronising, I just didn''t understand the relevance of the Gemaine Greer comment.

As it happens, I am a fan of Germaine Greer, although I do disagree with some of the statements in the Female Eunuch - for example, that women bring domestic violence upon themselves. However that was written almost 40 years ago and the world was then a very different place.

I have been lucky enough to have had a great deal of formal cultural sensitivity training to equip me to live in Turkey. That training took place over a considerable period before I came to live and work here and then was ongoing, provided in the main by Turkish women aligned to the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs. All of the women who ran these courses had lived and worked overseas and were highly emancipated professionals but their message was absolutely clear, the gender issues in Turkey are quite different to those with which we in Europe or the U.S. are familiar and as a consequence, foreigners who come to live here or even just come on holiday will find that all aspects of their behaviour will be judged quite differently to how they are judged at home.

I have chosen to make Turkey my permanent home. I feel privileged to be allowed to live here and I believe that in choosing to live here I must respect cultural sensitivities and behave in a way which causes no offence to my host country.  This in no way means that I have given up my lifelong belief in the absolute right of all women to fight for and expect equality of treatment.

lantana

[Sheez]

Short Answers:

On/In Public ie beach/beachclubs - No
Privately ie your apart/villa - Yes

Standards are slipping .... respect for the culture and people is required (not to mention self).

[kalkan wife]

This is only in my view, which is being shaped gradually over the time I have lived here in Kalkan the Turks attitude to many of the issues raised, culture, respect, womens emacipation etc are changing with the younger generation of Turks. One only has to watch their music video''s which are often overtly sexual in nature, to realise that times are indeed changing.

The younger generation here are embracing, for good or ill, Western European and American attitudes towards sex, religious worship, (whilst remaining muslim of course) what they wear and their understanding of acceptable behaviour.

That said, I would not sunbathe topless. Might frighten the locals!

[marking]

Absloutely Kalkan wife, Turkey is changing and is modernizing all the time with the younger generation, who want the same freedoms as the west. 40 or 50 years ago things were very different in the west, but because of a lot of hard work from people like Dr.Greer we have the society we have today. Sexism and racism etc. never used to be illegal as they are today in the west. Turkey is a country that also wants to move forward.
 I am sure there will be a lot of unprotected flamism however
 women should have the choice to do it and then choose not to out of dignity, not be forced into not doing it by social attitudes anywhere in the world

[jayne]

Sorry Marking, I don''t understand your point. Whose social attitudes are weird?

[holidayfever]

just to add my bit just returned from Akyaka no women were topless. A lot of local women were covered in the sea and out in head to toe swim wear no flesh on disply at all. Even if I had wanted too and I didnt I would have soon looked around and got the message not to go topless. We then moved on to Turunc again I saw I women topless and thought havent you worked this out you are out of order. Around our comlex was notices not to go topless. When the Marmaris day trippers came my god the sights you saw made you ashamed to be british, wondering around Turunc in very little but fat bellies and tatoo''s they never saw the locals shake there heads and the locals english and Turks saying the meat market was on the way. When for a few hours to Icmilar and yes topless a few thongs plenty. So I guess you choose the area to suit your needs but I really think apart from a few randy young turks who think you are easy game really it isnt liked, but of course they need our money so will just put up with it, although I have a feeling in Akyaka you would soon have got the message not in our town.

[kalcamp]

I wish they''d put a few signs up here in Kalkan, there are loads of people, bare chested Turks and tourists walking around and women going into eat with just bikinis on. it is beginning to look like Marmaris.

[Chucky]

I wonder if the Tour Reps include it in their Welcome Talks? I know when I went to some of the smaller Greek Islands, they quite often mentioned it in their talks and pointed out the "Naturists Beaches" were it was acceptable, or it was mentioned in the Welcome Packs and info.

[misty]

I was siting in town today watching the world go by and then I saw them two very over weight British men shirts off tucked into back of their shorts. Both were sweating like pigs and promptly marched into the supermarket !!!

Interesting that the new fruit and veg shop on the hill will throw out anyone that enters without a shirt...

[Em1]

Hi
Makes me glad I am not in Kalkan at the moment...
Em