Re: Buying advice - split from Hello

[christopple]

Hi  I suppose it depends on what you call expensive!!! Our bill for new roof and pool ran into quite a few thousands of pounds!!!!

[kevincat99]

Christopple was this a new build or a resale one?

[Cosetta]

A friend just had a pool rebuilt from scratch.  Completely stripped down to the cement, pipe-tested, recemented over a new mesh liner, reinsulated, retiled with top quality mosaic tiles (including the overflow drains) ... for ytl 6,300.  If one uses cheap Chinese tiles, it would be about ytl 1000 less.

[kim21]

hi guys,
  Did your guarantees expire and that''s why you had to pay.
About how long are guarantees for, do you get a 10 year or what?

[felicity]

We have a 10 year guarantee on our building...but to be quite honest - nothing is written down - it is all verbal and at the end of the day - this ain''t England and therefore - guarantees are not worth the paper they are written on (or not) unless you can get somewhere when you claim..!!

And at the end of the day - you might be waiting a VERY long time for your pool or your roof to get fixed and in the meantime..if you want to use the pool or live in the house -you just got to get on and get it fixed yourself..not right I know - but that is how it works..!!

Cheers!

[christopple]

Hi It was a new villa that we had to have the roof and pool redone on.
I dont think a guarantee will save you from these repairs!!

[kevincat99]

Hi Christopple - when this happened what did the builder / estate agent say about the problem ? or by then had they been paid and ..................................?

[christopple]

Hi
They had been paid and it was not worth the hassle of asking them to help so we got other people in to do the repairs.  I think lots of villas have the same problem.

[kevincat99]

You have to ask the question if this had happened in the UK would you just shrug and pay for the work yourself?
I don''t think so - so why do we do that her
Some Turkish builders just produce shoddy work and leave the owners to sort it out later at their own expense.
When you consider these properties are not usually cheap, why do people have to spend more of their hard earned cash to sort problems out
Does anyone know what the solution to this problem could be - rather than apathy?

[christopple]

Hi
It is not apathy but turkey is not the UK and things are not quite the same there. I agree we would not let it happen at home but we are not residents of Kalkan and it is not that easy.

[Lantana]

Kevincat - To make an assumption that it is apathy which prevents people taking action against builders when they find that their recently purchased property has structural problems is quite unfair. 

You live here full time, you speak basic Turkish, by now you should know your way round some of the complexities of society here yet even you pose the question ''does anyone here know what the solution to this problem could be?''

For people who do not live here, who have little or no Turkish and who do not know their way around, it is often far easier to get the work done themselves for a number of reasons:-

There is no formal building institution in Turkey which honours guarantees as the NHBRC does in the UK . So if you cannot get satisfaction from your builder, there is no appeal to a regulating body.

Many local builders are not actually builders at all, they have no construction expertise and were formerly taxi drivers, waiters etc. They do not understand the complexities of insulation, waterproofing, etc and even if asked to put things right, don''t know how to do so. It is not unusual to meet people here who have had the same repair carried out half a dozen times, never satisfactorily.

Many so called builders in this category have gone into bankruptcy or simply disappeared in the last year. This leaves anybody who has bought from them with no redress.

Taking legal action in Turkey is complex, time consuming and expensive. There is no ''small claims court'' .Court cases are conducted entirely in Turkish, making it difficult to understand what is going on, even when you have an interpreter, and in civil cases the plaintiff must lodge a considerable sum of money with the court before the case is heard to show that he or she has the ability to pay all costs . This sum could be tied up for years. It is rare, even when you have won a civil case, for costs to be awarded, so for many disputes, the costs of achieving the award far outweigh the award itself.  The current average wait for civil cases to be processed is two years, once the papers have been processed, the case can then drag on for years as the ''accused'' can constantly apply for adjournments, every delay costs more money and your roof continues to leak.

We know of civil cases which were initiated 5 years ago and are still nowhere near conclusion.

Most owners who are able to come out two or three times a year could spend their entire holiday just trying to track down their builder and even if he promises to fix things for them, they are not then here to oversee the work, so have no idea if it is done at all or done to a suitable standard.

So what is the answer?

Firstly and it goes without saying, buy from a reputable builder, who has a company which is registered for construction.

Buy in the winter not the summer - you will then see for yourself whether the house leaks

Ask to see other properties this builder has built and speak to the owners. Were they satisfied?

As Cosetta has pointed out, ask very specifically about the types of insulation materials which have been used - if they can''t answer your questions don''t buy

When you think you have found the house you want to buy (and only do this when you are serious) tell the builder you want to live in it for a few days - Test it to the full, any deficiencies will soon be apparent.

Ask people who have lived here full time for a number of years and who are not involved in the construction industry if they know anything good or bad about a builder you are planning to buy from. After ten years here, having seen so many people''s dream homes become an ongoing nightmare because of poor construction, there are no more than 5 builders|I would trust and would buy from.

In the current economic situation, many builders of inferior properties will be desperate to sell. If a property is very heavily discounted, be suspicious. If a villa has been built to the highest standards using
best quality materials, there will not be sufficient margin to offer large discounts.

So it''s not apathy which prevents action it is pragmatism - recognising that the quickest and most effective way to get things done is to take action yourself.

Lantana

[felicity]

Thanks, Lantana - you have put your reply to Kevincat so much more eloquently than I could have done - I agree wholeheartedly!   

[kevincat99]

My apologies as the use of the word "apathy" was perhaps not the best one to use- maybe forced acceptance of the situation, may have been better
All I was trying to ascertain after Christople''s and other posters problems [which I know DRBD can be very stressful] was in the future could there be a better way to avoid this.
Lantana is quite correct in what she says in that it "it is what happens here" and she gives ways in which to possibly avoid some of these problems - but they still happen
All I was asking was how, maybe even after checking references etc was is there any way of redress if a problem arises and the builder declines to help. For example what role in building does the Belediye building department have in this?
There are lots of comments on the Forum about good restaurants and maybe not so good restaurants but very little about good builders or maybe not so good [although posting anything detremental, could, I appreciate cause legal problems] - and the price of a house far outweighs the cost of a meal!
Would such comments being posted, help prospective purchasers - I don''t know
DRBD there was no intention "to be smug" as you suggest, what was I being smug about??. After living here for over four years it is a problem that I see happening and it can give the place a bad reputation, which we all want to avoid-I was asking a serious question
 

[kim21]

Yes I think it might be a good idea for some of those who live in kalkan and are in the know to let on who is a good builder and who is not, no builder will say he is disreputable nor any agent trying to sell, so how can any new buyers know?

Also how do you check if a property has proper insulation unless you are a builder, or the right mix of cement or the correct amount of steel.

Do people who have bought from a disreputable builder know he is so, and are they likely to admit it?

With guarantees that are not honored, and no structural surveyors working on behalf of the buyer, poor workmanship as standard (quote felicity) isn''t this forum a good opportunity to help all potential buyers and help them to save some of the misery that others have incurred.

It seems that with no means of redress form estate agents, builders or even the courts, it would be helpful to get these things sorted out before you commit

 

[felicity]

Hi Kim - I would just like to point out that the implication from your quote is that ''poor workmanship as standard'' is that ALL homes in Kalkan come with poor workmanship which is not the case. 

What I actually said was in reference to my OWN property

- but nothing major or structural has come to light - just poor workmanship which seems par for the course in all mediterranean countries...

Cheers!

[misty]

If I were to purchase a plot of land, would it be possible to bring my own builders out to do the major groundwork and building Has anyone ever tried this

[christopple]

Thanks Lantana
 we have spent a lot of money on repairs to our villa when all we ever wanted was to come and enjoy our second home for the short time we can spare each year. So far every time we have come there has been major works to be carried out but  after 4 years we are hoping that we can now come and enjoy our holidays in Kalkan which we love. I would not have wanted to get into legal battles with anyone to be honest so maybe we are to blame for what kevincat calls ''apathy''  We did actualy look at all the building and plans before we bought but were not aware of the problem with the pool and roof until the first heavy rain fall of the winter after we bought the villa and also until the pool was filled and had been in use for a few months we were not aware of the leaking from that either.

[carolk]

Hi

There are Civil Engineers in Turkey - I know one in Didim.  We are not told about them or encouraged to use them for the ''obvious'' reasons.  They would be obloged to give you a report which would not always be favourable.  If I knew then what I know now, I would use one - Im sure theyre worth every penny.  My Civil Engineers report is 100tl.

[rat2]

Kevincat & Kim21,

Posting anything detremental (e.g. naming and shaming poor builders) could have far more serious consequences than legal action and members would be well advised not to do so. Say what you will in private but this country, beautiful as it is, does not have freedom of speech - public criticism of the government (national or local), the system or individuals is a very dangerous practice. As with most things, it''''s best not to rush into any building project or property purchase without making a few checks. Find out what other projects the builder has completed and go to see them. Speak to neigbours if possible and anyone who has bought from the same builder. And pleeease don''''t believe anything you hear from your friendly barman, waiter or taxi driver - they just want the 3% introduction commission.

Misty,

Several English builders have been fined very heavily and deported (permanently) for working in Turkey without a work permit. I don''''t think an English builder would get a permit since, quality of workmanship aside, there are more than enough Turkish builders out there.

Christopple,

This probably doesn''''t apply in your case but you mentioned ''''plans''''. Even the best local builders don''''t necessarily stick to the plans once they''''re approved - I''''d bet that 75% or more local villas have one or two floors more than shown on the plans; so those bits, which usually include the roof (or penthouse) and a floor subject to ground flooding, have probably not been approved for human habitation. Anyone who pays for a plot allocated for a 2-level building and has a 4-level structure built is trying to buck the system and I have no sympathy for them. Leaking roofs and pools (I would not like to live downhill of 50% of Kalkan''''s pools) are usually down to poor building techniques; as Lantana has correctly stated, most of the local builders have no building training or qualifications whatsoever.

Carolk,

Good idea but they need to be active before and during the build and that could be expensive and not entirely foolproof. They''''re not that easy to come by either, I know several Turks with civil engineering degrees but they all prefer to work in the tourism industry. Good luck with your case mentioned on another thread, but do be careful (see first paragraph).

[Enjoy Kalkan]

Hi Rat2,

I think that first paragraph about posting with caution is something people really should heed, I could not agree more. It only takes a minute to post something on the internet, it could take a lifetime to try and remove it.