Kalkan Turkey Forum - EnjoyKalkan.com
Kalkan Discussion => Politics & Debate => Topic started by: lindyloubluecat on April 22, 2011, 11:28:29 AM
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A responsible dog owner as everybody knows is one that is responsible for it's own dog. The dog is kept in the house as a pet (if you are English), it is walked on a lead, fed, treated for fleas ticks etc, and vaccinated. If it barks it comes in!
It is NOT running around loose, fowling in any garden it chooses, sitting all over my outside furniture, barking it's brains out all night, chasing cars, chasing scooters, pestering people who are trying to eat a meal out in a resturant, fighting in the street, attacking any dog it sees on a lead or trying to bite anybody that trys in vain to shoo them away as not everybody likes dogs or are scared of dogs. Most aren't vaccinated and are running alive with ticks and fleas. They all are filthy and getting bigger and bigger!
For the 2nd time in as many weeks i was out with my dog on his lead and once again was attacked. 4 dogs with "an owner" off the lead tried to rip mine to shreads. I carry a stick which i had to use to defend the dog before letting him off the lead so he had a better chance of escape. The beating did discourage the dogs and mine ran off and hid screaming his head off. This sort of thing is now common place as there are so many dogs now in Kalkan.
I went into town 3 times in one day this week but at the bottom of the hill everytime there were at least 6 big dogs wondering about looking for trouble. I have to return home because i don't want to get into a huge battle with the dogs.
I can't go to the beach or for nice walks with my dog as there are too many dogs off the leads wanting to tear him apart.
Why am i and my dog being punished.
Too many people are dumping huge great dogs in Kalkan because they know they get fed and spayed. This is a major problem and before i get jumped on from a great height, i only hope that it's not one of your family that gets attacked by one of these animals. KAPSA need to get onto the Mayor or council and address these problems properly and quickly as somebody WILL get hurt.
If we had a collection for a huge bus to come and put all of the dogs in, then take them on a long drive to the hills and let some other village be responsible for them i will donate the first 10 lire! I will also drive the bus.
If you own a dog BE RESPONSIBLE for it! I homed a street dog but as far as i can see it causes me nothing but trouble whenever i walk out the door!
Instead of paying to get them done just give them the one jab and send it up to doggie heaven. They won't know a thing about it!
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Well said, that person!!
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Here here, and well said. Lets be honest about this subject once and for all. The (stray) dog situation in Kalkan is totally out of control and needs sorting before someone gets badly hurt, if not worse, by these dangerous - 'cause thats what they are - dogs. A car accident caused, somehow, by a dog / dogs is in the post ! I had a near miss only last Nov, luckly, no one was hurt, including the dog !, just some very shaken up passengers ;)
KASPA ( I only know what I read ) by all accounts do a great job, well done to all involved.......but sadly its not working, you only have to walk from Kalamar Bay to say, the harbour, to realise how out of control this is. I know some (dog loving) Kalkan old timers will tell me 'how bad it was'' or its much better since / before KASPA was founded and it prob is, but that fact does not mean we should all just say "we know its bad, but its better than it was". That does not wash anymore. I dont know the answer, I just know it needs sorting FAST.
Please lets try not to get upset because someone has raised this topic again, lets try to debate it with clear heads and respect for other peoples veiws, you never know 'EnjoyKalkan' may come up with the answer ;)
They are quite simply, a blight on Kalkan.
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Kalamar Dream - by your own admission in your post "all you know about Kapsa is what you read".
It is a bit like saying all you know about the atrocities going on in the world is what you read!
What are YOU doing about it to help, be it humans or animals? It is very easy to pontificate, not so easy to come up with a rational solution.
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Maryjane, All we all know is what we read (except the few directly involved) but we all have views and opinions. The majority of visitors to Kalkan and to this board are Brits living in Britain. Fact. We go there for a holiday. It really shouldn't be our responsibility to solve the Kalkan dog problem. Surely the responsibility should be that of the Belediye?
Like Kalamar Dream says, the issue needs be debated sensibly and calmly.
If nothing changes then some people will vote with their feet and holiday elsewhere.
Just my opinion.......................... but first hand experience of the walk from Kalamar bay to town has not always been good so I'd like to think that my opinion matters.
PW
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I sympathise entirely with the posts regarding the dogs. Last week I went up to the market and was subjected to a very large dog jumping up at me and nearly knocking me over, the dog scratched my arm badly. I did not look at it or call to it, I was merely passing by. I am not usually afraid of dogs but this one scared the hell out of me. The only way I could get rid of it was to drop my shopping bag, it was worth the 5 lira I had spent to distract it. Meanwhile the male turkish owner was very amused by the situation and did not attempt to call his dog to task. Not all english/tourists are happy to be followed by large dogs everytime they step of of the door. I have made donations and supported Kapsa, but I agree something needs to be done, and soon before a child or adult is seriously injured. Why is it, when someone brings something up on this forum, it is always followed by someone else having a dig at them?
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Maryjane, this is a forum so its purpose is for people to express their views or 'portificate' !
Clearly the policy of KAPSA of winter feeding doesn't work as there is an increasing dog population in Kalkan. People outside Kalkan are encouraged to dump their dogs here, increasing it still further. Now there is a real problem in the town that the authorities have to deal with.
I have been in Kalkan for the last few weeks and, compared to last year, I regret to say that the problem is far worse.
As noticable, especially at night and all night, is the incessent noise made by the dog's barking in the centre of town, down the Kalamar road and in the Kiziltas area.
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This subject has been done to death - if you typed 'dogs' into the forum search facility, EK might implode. The situation has become a bit worse this year, but, in my view, concerned posters just expressing a concern about is fine. If anyone had a solution to the problem, now or years ago, I would hope that it would have taken board and acted upon.
Just like the atrocities around the world, about which we all care, this is probably best left to the appropriate authorities, be that KAPSA and Kalkan Belediye or the United Nations (not a comparison I ever expected to make). The more comment there is about the problem, the more likely it is that the search for a solution will continue/gather momentum - imagine a group of American tourists visiting Trafalgar Square a few years back - I doubt they would have known how to control the pigeons, but their comments drove the local authorıty to take action. I care about the fate of innocent dogs but also about those that are responsible dog owners or feel their holidays are spoiled by the strays and their noise or threatening behaviour or packing. No, I don't have a solution, any more than I can suggest one for the situation in Libya, Yemen etc, but I feel that a forum about Kalkan is a good ... forum on which to express whatever views you have about Kalkan, positive/negative, open-ended or complete. Any mention of a cull would still be hugely inappropriate, unless of course applied to Gaddafi's regime.....
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What a well informed opinion Eniste! 8) 8) 8)
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But is anyone going to do anything about it ? or will we in a years time be moaning about an even worse situation... or reporting a serious injury to a child..... Kapsa, you have been warned.
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Funny thing is if it was beggers in the streets they would be moved on very quickly because its dogs we get all wooly and fluffy about it..... funny old world we live in :) :)
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There are now a lot of people complaining about all the dogs in Kalkan, and sides are being taken. An article on .,.,.,., barking dogs was locked out by E K. The census on the subject did not appear on K T L N. It's quite obvious that Kapsa intends to continue with it's Winter Feeding Programme and it has a major fund raising event coming up soon. The English must be the laughing stock in all the outlying villages where we have solved their stray dog problems for them! So what to do about it? This is something that the full time residents must get involved in. May I make a few suggestions. Make up some posters and picket the fund raising event. Get it photographed and put it on the Internet. Most peoples phones now have the ability to take video pictures, take some of the dog packs and publish in the same way. Try to get some action pictures of the dogs chasing vehicles or worrying people. Take the cameras with you to the ground floor restaurants. I know that the English don't usually go in for this sort of thing but it's quite obvious that writing about the problem is acheiving nothing, and you can't expect people who are not there to help, although those who are there at the time can. Let's shame them into doing something!
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Are people aware that Turkey is classed as being a high risk country for RABIES. I remember that rabies was found in a dog in Fethiye last year.Dogs can be carriers of rabies for up to six months before they show any symptoms. The virus is carried in the saliva and once bitten by an infected animal its almost always fatal unless the person is immunised against the disease.
A work college of mine was in Istanbul a month ago and got bitten, an unprovoked attack by a dog. She received a dose of Rabies vaccination in Istanbul but on return to the UK two days later the Health Protection Agency advised that she get treated urgently with rabies immunoglobalin as her risk was so high. I had the task of infiltrating her wound with five injections of immunoglobalin( these are rabies antibodies as opposed to the rabies vaccine which is 100% effective but must be given pre exposure to be effective).
I was in Kalkan last week and this experience certainly made more aware of the risks we could be exposed to with the increasing dog population. My children and I just didnt go around patting the dogs as usual, we just ignored them but that was what my collegue was doing and she was attacked.Maybe the authorities should approach this issue from a health and safety point of view.
KK
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Hi,
I just wanted to pick up on a comment there - Sides are not being taken, the only reason a barking dogs thread was locked on EK was because the subject at times is repeated over and over again. It is not a case of taking sides as I believe many people have had their say on this forum, it is a case of not turning a discussion into a "he said she said" style topic.
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Well said Dellbar, it could be a start, the camera doesn't lie and then the problem can no longer be ignored.
I have worked in quarantine in the UK and yes Turkey isn't for FACT rabies free it was always a higher risk country and i can assure you one bite from a rabbid dog and i would make sure your affairs are well and truly in order!
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Just a question .....can dogs be vaccinated against catching / developing rabies and if so do KAPSA do this when the dog is neutered or spayed, before being released in the village?
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Before anyone has a go at me I am a responsible dog owner and love my rescued pets unconditionally. I have donated to and supported KAPSA and will continue to do so but I think the answer lies in humane euthanisia for stray street dogs that cannot be rehomed (which is what happens in the UK) and neutering dogs that are owned. Responsible ownership should also be enforced and pets should be kept at home or on a lead and not let out to wander about. No owned dog should be allowed to bark incessantly at night and any owner who allows this should have to pay a fine. This is just my own view of how to deal with the problem but I am sure I will incur the wrath of many for saying it.
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Just come back this morning from a week in Kalkan, and have had first hand experience of the situation. Barking dogs at all hours of the evening/morning are just the tip of the iceberg. I walked across the carpark in the town centre first thing one morning to get a paper. One dog lolloped up to me and I thought nothing of it, until it was joined one by one with seven others. This is where it turned nasty and one dog nipped at my shorts with two others growling and all of them surrounding me. Now I'm a well built guy and can handle myself quite well I think, however even I was very worried at this stage as to whether the situation would get worse!, I kept moving and reached the comparitive safety of the main road, with other humans around the dogs dispersed.
However I feel if things were different and I was a child or someone 'less dominant' and had froze then things could have turned out very nasty indeed. My partner saw the next morning an old local woman having to defend herself by throwing rocks at these dogs the very next day.
Something very nasty is ging to happen one day unless these dogs are treated like they are here. Round them up if loose and if they are not claimed then put them up for adoption, if no one comes forward then have them put down. Any repeat offences of letting a dog roam loose should be met with fines.
Get this done before a tragedy occurs, don't be wiser after the event.
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The rare times that my dogs exit on a lead from our fenced-in garden, I carry pepper spray and a supply of large stones to defend them from bigger dogs. But mostly we do not want to take the chance so no longer take them anywhere in town.
I believe that in many countries dogs roaming the streets are taken to the dog pound, and if not claimed or adopted within a reasonable time, they are given a lethal injection. Am I wrong?
As much as I've always had dogs and love dogs, it appears that no one has an alternative solution. Thus, I have to agree with Kalkanbelle and MerseyDave. This is a serious accident waiting to happen. Sooner or later it will. And then?
KAPSA has tried very hard, their efforts are commendable. They got much more than they bargained for I'm sure. But the best efforts of Kapsa will not be enough to solve this problem. The alternative is a huge fund donated by some animal lover that would permit someone to buy a farm far, far away from any inhabited area and take with her / him / them all the hundreds of dogs. Until then ...
Note: many of the barking dogs are kept by Turkish businesses along the Akbel road as protection for their stores and wares. These dogs bark all night long. Do you think they will pay a fine because their dogs bark :(
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This is worrying and it must be time for a cull of all stray dogs...its a fact that you can kill strays faster than they can breed...all tagged dogs still found roaming should be impounded and if unclaimed and a fine paid destroyed......its not pleasant killing the dogs but having seen this done in the Middle East it worked in the end.....
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Can all those people talking about culling, simply read the Turkish law relating to animal rights in THIS country, and accept that they cannot apply their own rules to this country.... Animals that are a real danger to other animals/people can be put to sleep, but you simply cannot get rid of a healthy animal that might just chase a few cars and bark a bit.... At least, not in Turkey... and thank goodness for that!
If we had more time, we could let you know the number of female dogs we have neutered, and calculate how many more dogs would be on the street had we not done that.... So please, keep on helping Kapsa do what we can to restrict the number of animals - in accordance to the Turkish law.
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Maybe if the mayor gets bitten on the back side something will be done ;) ;) ;) ;)
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People suggesting a cull or euthanising healthy animals need to remember that it is illegal to do so in Turkey. The law as I have read it seems perfectly clear. What are KAPSA to do? They spend time and money raising funds for the neutering programme which if fundraising is harmed by a "picket" of an event, will be reduced thus resulting in even more dogs.
Encouraging people to become responsible owners is a priority and only time will tell if it has a positive effect. I have no first hand knowledge of the situation this year as I've not been out yet but will continue to support the work that KAPSA do within the laws of the country they live in
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I was talking to a well known taxi driver in Kalkan, he told me that last week a Turkish man was bitten on the leg and had rabbies injections in his stomach? Does anyone really fancy going through this for the sake of so called 'lovely dogs'?
Reading the comments which it is suggested the mayor takes no notice of the problem, it maybe that it is raised by what he thinks, non residents of Turkey? I suggest that the people who have residency are asked if they are happy or not with the dog situation, if not then the group or nominated persons, with translator petition the mayor in person! My attitude to any problem as always been, if it is solved easy it was never a real problem anyway but if it needs working on then work on it! ??? It is no good, as someone said earlier just keep on moaning about the subject, changes for the better are always the most difficult.
I will say that I am more than willing, as a resident of Turkey to submit, discuss, petition or whatever to the mayor any mandate on the dog problem as agreed by residents! IT REALLY IS THE TIME TO DO SOMETHING!!! >:(
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There are various comments on here in favour of and opposed to the stray dogs, what has to be remembered is that these dogs are fundamentally feral, they in many cases, were dumped in Kalkan as puppies and just had to survive or die, the odds are that many do not survive.
As a result of the undeniably well intentioned actions of KAPSA, many are thriving, but as with anything in nature it is the strong who survive, often at the cost of the less able/weaker of the species which are destined to a painfully slow death from malnutrition.
The strong survivors become emboldened and despite the kindliness of their human providers have almost a contempt for humans, they have no understanding of the principal of hierarchy, indeed once in packs they seem to see themselves as the superior dominants and as such become a serious threat to humans who show fear. It is a very real possibility that one day there will be serious attack from such a pack which could result in horrific consequences.
I do not advocate the indiscriminate culling of animals but with the best will in the world the efforts of KAPSA are not enough, the local authorities must accept responsibility and do something with regard to rounding up the strays, either finding homes for them or humanely disposing of them.
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Kapsa are working within the guidelines of such organisations as the World Health Organisation and the RSPCA.We work within the Turkish Animal rights laws.
We have tried very hard over a long period of time to work with the Kalkan Belidye without success,they are just not interested in even talking about the problem.Yes we agree the street animals are a problem but at least we are trying to do something about it.
Last year there was a big article in one of the UK newspapers about a tourist town in Greece and the culling done at the end of each season-there was an outcry and their tourist trade was badly effected.Tourists in Kalkan are usually very pleased to hear we have a programme for neutering and vacinating the street dogs.Of course we do not want to see dangerous dogs on the streets and we have taken positive action on a number of occasions to remove such animals.
Kapsa has more Turkish members than foreigners and that is important to be aware of.
We are also trying hard to advocate responsible ownership and support from the mayor in this matter would help very much.
I would ask everyone who is writing on this subject to learn as much as they can about it and lets all work together for a better Kalkan.
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Visit any other village around here and you never meet any significant numer of dogs. Why? They are probably rounded up by the local people and taken away (dumped in Kalkan?) on a regular basis. Sad but true.
The majority of people i have spoken to in Kalkan have alot to say about the policies of KAPSA, and none of it is good. No doubt they will be well supported at the next fund raiser, however alot of local people are reluctant to go and actually spend money, they go for the social aspect. Every one knows they work hard to make a success of their fund raising events, all credit to them, but they might gain more support locally if they also donated to causes involving human beings.
If you are a visitor to Kalkan do not be fooled to think that KAPSA represent the foreigners view on dogs locally, they are a tiny minority.
Just a parting thought, would you be happy with a pack of wild dogs at the end of your street in the UK, barking all night and knowing your children would be walking through them every morning? And would you be donating money to feed these dogs year round?
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Jacaranda...your parting thought is bang on the money....... :)
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burası kalkan buraya gelirken köpek istemiyoruz diya bir sözleşmemi imzalıyorsunuz ki ne hakla bu hayvanların uyutulmasını öne sürüyorsunuz?Ayrıca uyutmanın bir çözüm olduğu kanısına nasıl varıyorsunuz ? Diyelim ki kalkandaki tüm köpekler uyutuldu daha bundan sonra hiç köpek gelmeyecek mi ?Ya çevre köydeki köpekler ne olacak bu sorun sadece kalkan'a mı ait?Kesinlikle bu kabul edilinebilecek bir olay değilllllll....
And this in English means;
This is Kalkan, when you come here did you sign some sort of contract that said that you didn't want any dogs to be here? What right do you have to say that these animals should be put to sleep? Anyway, what makes you think that putting them to sleep would be a solution? OK lets say we put all the dogs in Kalkan to sleep, after that would no other dogs come to Kalkan? What about the dogs in the villages around Kalkan? Do you think this a problem special to Kalkan? What you suggest is definitely not acceptable at all!!!
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Jacaranda, with the greatest respect we are not discussing a UK problem, we are discussing a "problem" in Kalkan, Turkey, so what may or may not transpire within the UK has little to do with the debate. At the risk of boring everyone to death and repeating myself, there are laws in Turkey which must be respected and obeyed. KAPSA , whilst recognising that there are some ongoing issues are at least trying to do something about it, including having dialogue with the elected representative of the people of Kalkan. What else do you expect them to do?
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Itstime, perhaps they could stop the indiscriminate feeding of dogs and the insane desire to re-home every stray dog. If anybody wants to actually read the literature of WHO they would see that these organisations state that the food resources must be controlled and that stray dogs must be stopped from entering the area for the policies of neutering and returning to be effective. Perhaps someone should also ask the question why are the Belidye so reluctant to help when it is their responsibility. Could it possibly be foreigners trying to tell them what they are or are not allowed to do in their own country?
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Couldn't agree more with you about the role of the Belidye. Seems like they may be reluctant to become involved for whatever reason ???
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If Jacaranda looked into it more thoroughly, then he/she would know that there are as many Turkish people on the Kapsa team as foreigners... oh and yes... they are local people too!
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And if you could let us know where this wild pack of dogs is, then we could look into it, rather than just stirring up problems on the Forum....
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I thought I had better stand up and be counted instead of just muttering in the background.
Did you know that if there was a good dog handler in the area they could assess these street dogs for their suitability for training for use by the Army, Poilce, and Customs, or for Guide Dogs for the blind etc and of course for suitability as pets? I also gather from a friend who did this, rescued street dogs, it can be a very lucrative business, certainly it could cover expenses incurred. Granted the handler must really love dogs and know how to spot the animal's potential to do this successfully.
Any dog that bites without provocation should be put down. Agressive dogs should wear a muzzle, I admit I do not know if the latter is a realistic treatment for a street dog, question of feeding and also their safety re. attacks by unmuzzled street dogs.
I wish I knew the answer, but there are so many factors to be considered, not least that animals lives are not regarded in the same manner by all cultures.
But what do we do when a human attacks and hurts or kills another human or behaves in a bullying or intimidating manner or causes real disruption to society?
Should dogs not receive the same treatment?
I shall support KAPSA's fund raising event, because they are at least TRYING to do something even though it is apparent that not all agree with them and I would like to think they would take on board any viable and constructive ideas.
Is there a "Solomon" out there?
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Kapsa's good work on neutering is an obvious way of keeping down the animal street population and is to be commended.
What I can't agree with is the winter feeding programme. The animals are well fed during the summer by tourists and the restaurants, and then fed by Kapsa in the winter. However it is a policy to increase the street animal population, not reduce it. For that reason I will not support Kapsa. They are well intentioned but misguided.
Could someone tell me where in Turkish law it says that the street animal population have to be fed in winter ?
Wally and John Fed made some good suggestions.
1. KTLN (as a matter of urgency) must run a poll to get an accurate view of what both foreign and Turkish residents think. If Kapsa are too busy (why ?) to do it, I am happy to help. with some suggestions.
2. Representations (with the poll results) should be made to the Mayor as it is their responsibility !! They must be made to act (humanely) to reduce the street animal population.
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Kalkankedlier - just walk around Kalkan especially in the evenings - you are bound to see packs of dogs. - it is natural for dogs to pack. Most of the dogs here are really only seeking attention and are not a problem, unless you have a fear of dogs.
To visitors and non-Turkish Residents.
I would point out that stray dogs are less of a problem to us than gangs who roam the streets of most inner cities and towns in the UK. There it is not safe to walk out at night (and sometimes during the day)
However there are obviously things that could be done IF the Turkish Residents wish it.
REMEMBER we ex-Pats chose to live here, and we knew "the state of play" or should have before we settled here.
REMEMBER we Brits do not like some of the changes being imposed upon us in the UK because of Immigrants. Therefore why should the Turkish population like it when we try to do the same here.
An up to date pole with some constructive suggestions might perhaps be a good idea.
AND if you have an unfortunate encounter with dogs, note the problem dog and report it to the Mayor's Office.
A suggestion to KAPSA, I notice that you are putting collars on some of the dogs, why can they not be ones with "Bark inhibitors" Expensive I know, but I am sure donations towards this would flow in.
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Thanks Bella. Really do appreciate your constructive views... Think the comment I made though was for the wild pack that was mentioned at the end of Jacaranda's road... as you say, there are packs - outside my house included... but just couldnt say they were a wild pack... and if there are any that are being a danger, then of course we must look into it...
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Denners, thank you for saying that at least Kapsa are doing something good... a relief to hear that there is support re the neutering at least...
Re the winter feeding, we actually had Turkish people complaining that some dogs were hungry and eating their chickens... so we started feeding those dogs that had been missed out...
Experience has it - right or wrong - that if animals are not fed, they get more aggressive, become disease ridden, and from the point of tourism, would do nothing for Kalkan. Having been to Greece and Italy and seen for myself what happens, is that really the answer?
Kapsa is now getting lots of support from locals who now accept the value of neutering... school children are becoming more interested and in generations to come, hopefully everything will become better... but there is a lot to do and we do need lots of help to do it... Help from the Belediye, whose responsibility it really is would be great... but in the mean time, we do what we do.
If you go to Fethiye, the Belediye there have posted large posters, encouraging people to look after the street animals.... Nowhere in the Turkish law re animal rights does it say that you shouldn't feed them.
And, with the help of many Turkish and non- Turkish people, we do manage to find homes for many of the puppies dumped in Kalkan...
This is not directed to anyone in particular, but if we could all use our energies to find constructive ideas within the legalities of this lovely country, it would be more helpful to all...
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:) Its a pity Arzu that your comment comes across like this. You are correct that no ones signs a contract before coming to Kalkan! What you are not correct in is that you seem to think we want dogs 'put to sleep' for the joy of it? People who write to this forum are usually people who have had a experience with DOGS WHO ARE NOT OWNED & these dogs have caused either a scaring episode or who have attacked their pet or themselves. If a human acted to another human like this the Jandarma would take them off the street to stop this re-occuring! You maybe shocked at this Arzu but people do have more rights to safety than dogs! We know we are guests in Turkey & even us residents of Turkey wish to abide by Turkish law & customs that is why we live here and respect its people & customs with all our heart but it also the custom to look after guests? So my friend what we are trying do do here is discuss how we solve this problem as a community? ??? Do not just say its unacceptable, contribute to a solution & let us say for all time this subject as gone away because if not then tourists will go away & then what happens in Kalkan?????????? :'( :'( :'( :'(
burası kalkan buraya gelirken köpek istemiyoruz diya bir sözleşmemi imzalıyorsunuz ki ne hakla bu hayvanların uyutulmasını öne sürüyorsunuz?Ayrıca uyutmanın bir çözüm olduğu kanısına nasıl varıyorsunuz ? Diyelim ki kalkandaki tüm köpekler uyutuldu daha bundan sonra hiç köpek gelmeyecek mi ?Ya çevre köydeki köpekler ne olacak bu sorun sadece kalkan'a mı ait?Kesinlikle bu kabul edilinebilecek bir olay değilllllll....
And this in English means;
This is Kalkan, when you come here did you sign some sort of contract that said that you didn't want any dogs to be here? What right do you have to say that these animals should be put to sleep? Anyway, what makes you think that putting them to sleep would be a solution? OK lets say we put all the dogs in Kalkan to sleep, after that would no other dogs come to Kalkan? What about the dogs in the villages around Kalkan? Do you think this a problem special to Kalkan? What you suggest is definitely not acceptable at all!!!
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As the person who started off this debate i would like to say that my intention was not to dig out KAPSA. I think KAPSA should be the peoples represensitive of what should be done to the powers that be on the subject to try to solve this problem. KAPSA i have no problem with, they do they're best and i am not knocking them. They actually have a voice that people reconise.
I am hacked off with dogs attacking me and my dog when i walk him. But on seeing some of the comments i have to answer a few questions.
I was a dog handler. I also worked for many years in quarantine. So i do know what i am talking about!
Kevincat99....yes there is a vaccine for rabies, but i am 100% sure none of the street dogs or cats for that matter have this. The reason why is the cost! I could be wrong but am sure i am not!
Kalkankediler.....Animals that can be a real danger to other animals /people can be put to sleep.
BUT you can't simply get rid of healthy animals that might chase a few cars or bark a bit.
When i first came to Kalkan i with my friend witnessed a scooter being chased by 4 dogs. The driver of the scooter was bitten, fell off his bike, outside the local health centre as luck would have it, but had his leg bone pointing out of his leg because the dogs had caused a serious accident. Is that a problem or not? Should the dogs involved be put down? who paid that mans hospital bills? FACT. The dogs may chase a few cars but they cause accidents, the dogs go free the victims suffer the costs!
Bella..... comments about a dog handler, I AM A DOG HANDLER. My first lesson was that a nervous dog is a dangerous dog. How many nervous dogs do we all see every day?
Take into account that dogs are pack animals, we live in Turkey so what! The answer is not if you don't like the dogs don't come to Kalkan. There is a problem here and i don't care if people like it or not, Living in Turkey or the Uk is not the issue i couldn't give a damn, but something needs to be done and fast!
If i moved back to the UK i would take my dog, but if i didn't are you telling me that the vet wouldn't put my dog down if i asked him to? There are too many do gooders here trying to protect the dogs, Get a grip these people and let normal people live they're lives, no we are not in the UK but if you were in the UK this situation would not even apply!!!
I have travelled all around Europe and have not in any of the 14 country's that i visited seen such a lash up on these street dogs! Get the vans out and cull the things. It works.
Be warned. The dogs are too big and too many. Turkish or English There is a major problem, address it now or suffer the consiquences. Take it from some one who knows!!!!!!!!
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Chrissybaby - Well put & forceful! Its about time the majority who view this problem as serious stop pandering to the views of the do gooders who have helped in creating this problem!
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Guess I would be classed as a do-gooder as I am a member of Kapsa and trying to do something about the street animal problem.I call it a problem because it is one.
This isnt an official Kapsa reply or anything,just my do gooding thoughts!!
There are too many dogs on the streets-many are Turkish owned.There are laws concerning owned dogs that the local authorities can implement but dont.We have to understand that ownership in Turkey doesnt mean the dog will be kept in the house but some dogs are totally unsuitable for the streets and should be kept in the owners garden under control and registered.
Dangerous street dogs should be removed from the streets and I do know cases where this has happened but there shoud be an official procedure and again the local authority must be involved.
Neutering and eduction in surrounding areas would reduce the number of street dogs dumped.The imam in Akbel has already asked for help in this matter.Dumping of animals needs to be veiwed seriously too but is happening all over the world.
Such organisations such as the World Health Organisation and RSPCA have made studies on street animal populations and they all recommend the neuter and return policy.This means that the animals on the streets are neutered,vacinated and returned to their own area.
So the choice is to know what dogs are on our streets and that they are healthy,neutered,vacinated and registered or to cull.Which would mean culling on a regular basis as more arrive.More will always arrive.
If Kalkan decides on the cull option I for one will take my cats and leave.
Living in the town I am in contact with a lot of turkish people and although they too see the animals as a problem,as I do, I have never heard one of them suggest culling is the answer and they are very offended and angry to think that tourists/ex-pats believe they would want it to happen.
I will continue to work with Kapsa in trying to involve the local authorities as I believe it is the only way forward.If Kapsa is driven out of town and a mass cull is undertaken it will be a very sad day for Kalkan.
As I said these are my personal thoughts and I am not writing on behalf of Kapsa
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Amber, whilst I agree with the very sensible neutering policy, you are not offering any solution to the increasing street animal population which everyone wants !
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There has been a lot of research done on the control of street animal populations and a long term neuter and return programme together with an education programme is viewed as the only long term solution.
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And its not working in Kalkan because of the misguided winter feeding programme and the lack of responsibility and action of the authorities !
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Denners I agree with you that the Belidiye should do something about the problem and work with Kapsa who are the only people doing anything to try to solve it at the moment! But I am curious, What, in your view would happen if Kapsa didn't feed the dogs and cats in the winter?
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Here we go again! Lots of unreasonably emotive language (do-gooder, misguided etc) and the demand for a solution which is simply not there, short of destruction of some animals (a polıcy that would need to become a regular event) or the provision of a dog pound. Personally, I agree with an earlier post that feeding of some dogs, whether by restaurants, kind-hearted Kalkanites or by KAPSA is a good thing, and turns hungry, angry dogs into better-fed and hopefully better-behaved dogs. How to stop them barking or packing is another challenge.
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I didn't really want to get into this topic as it seems to me that we are just going over issues that have been discussed so many times before. However, I felt I had to answer Chrissy baby's comment about rabies vaccinations for animals:
I was a dog handler. I also worked for many years in quarantine. So i do know what i am talking about!
Kevincat99....yes there is a vaccine for rabies, but i am 100% sure none of the street dogs or cats for that matter have this. The reason why is the cost! I could be wrong but am sure i am not!
For the last 18 months EVERY dog that we at Kapsa have had neutered has also been vaccinated against rabies. Every dog is also registered with a photo and a note is taken of its tag number and where it came from. The form also has the rabies vaccination sticker on it with the date and the vet's stamp and signature.
You are right about one thing though Chrissy Baby - it is expensive, hence all our efforts at fundraising.
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The arguments on this thread seem to drift from one extreme to another without coming up with anything constructive. Obviously everyone is frustrated with the situation but the options on how to deal with it vary significantly. I love animals but can see something needs to be done. Having read through, the only consesus (even with KAPSA) is that the belediye needs more involvement. Would it not be possible to raise a petition with both foreign residents/owners and Turks. I'm sure it would get 100s+ support from the local community to be presented to the belediye so they clearly get the message and start to assist the work that Kapsa already do or help with alternatives. The survey highlighted this subject had most complaints but what's the point in completing the survey if no action is taken.
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Chickengeorge,
At last some sanity! Brilliant idea! :) :) :)
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There are stray dogs in Kalkan who are well known and well loved because they are sweet and gentle and affectionate. However, I find the packs of dogs around the Kalamar Road and roundabout frightening and I have heard of people being bitten by them. They are also very worrying when they chase cars and bikes. Could I suggest that these packs be rounded up and put in a Dogs Home somewhere outside the village which could be supported by charitable donations rather like Battersea Dogs Home.
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Please take time to watch this video, it only lasts 4 minutes but I think sums up brilliantly what we at Kapsa are trying to do! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q_WAl8_xBI&feature=relmfu. Thank you.
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All the organisations around the world who have researched this problem for a lot longer than we have, must surely have a better idea than some of those who have commented re culling... maybe time to investigate, learn and listen... and ultimately hopefully help and support us...
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i trust that those that don't agree with KAPSA and regard them as "do gooders" won't be attending fund raising events? i suspect you would be as welcome as a trump in an astronauts suit
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One thing that stuck out from the WSPA video, that most of the 'bashers' dont seem to acknowledge, is that these organisations try to work 'within the bounds of local cultural sensitivity'..... and that seems to be what you are all fighting about... so stop fighting, help Kapsa raise more money, and the more we get neutered, the more we can help with education re neutering, which has already improved so much, the sooner there will be less animals dumped and less animals on the streets....
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Can I ask someone from KAPSA what role do the Belediye play in this problem?
Do they do anything or are they just happy to sit back and push all the responsibility onto KAPSA for this problem
Do the Belediye have any funds either through local taxes or through Central Government funding to help deal with this problem and if so do they use them for this ?
It's all very well KAPSA appealing for more cash but are there other funds available which could be utilised?
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Ultimately though, if feeding and neutering continues, more and more, albeit sterile, dogs will be on the streets until they pop their cloggs of natural causes. Some will be docile and some will be aggressive but they will be everywhere!
Kapsa members/supporters have previously stated that Turks from outlying villages and towns dump their unwanted animals in kalkan because they know that they will be fed so how can the situation NOT spiral out of control?
There have been a lot of opinions expressed and it is clearly an emotive issue and more complex than it would first appear. I certainly don't have the answer (well actually I thought I did at one point but it turns out I don't) but I just can't see how the situation in Kalkan will improve unless something different is done and I guess that will need the buy in of the locals / local authority and that must mean "getting rid" one way or another of some/all of the abandoned animals.
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I live in Saribelen and packs of dogs are regularly dumped in the village. In the last assortment of large dogs left here to fend for themselves one was a tricolour amputee on three legs! Someone must of paid for that operation. These dogs are as bigger menace here as they are in Kalkan with humans,cats, chickens, sheep and goats to attack which they do.
A lot of the villagers here no longer have dogs either can't afford to feed them or regard them as to much trouble. Those that do prefer a dog rather than a bitch. Mostly its the shepherds that have the dogs now.
When we first moved here the villagers laughed at us for neutering our animals now they come and ask us if we will do the same for their cat or dog and Thanks to Kapsa we can do this.
Slowly slowly the mindset is changing.
As an aside a few months ago an old couple asked if we could get their dog neutered. We asked them not to feed the dog as the anaesthetic would make it sick. Once Ibrahim had given the injection the dog began to vomit copious amounts of corba. The old man had come with us and we said we did ask you not to feed her. He said we didn't we gave her soup to drink............which is oviously not quite the same as eating.
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???I actually despair with the continuing 'we do this' 'you are wrong' 'no were not, be educated watch this' It is acknowledged that this topic re-occurs every now and again but just like all British we moan, hate the government, change this but still vote the same crowds in everytime, this topic is the same! Why don't we just forget it all? I have already offered to be apart of representation to the Mayor. If we cannot meet, discuss and try,lets all stop this topic as words seem to mean more than action 8) 8) 8) In closing KAPSA are trying in their own way BUT MY FRIENDS YOU ARE FAILING WITH YOUR POLICY! If you were actually on the right track this topic would not keep coming up & people would not be threatened! :-[ I tell you what lets just say the majority are wrong and misguided & KASPA have all the answers and let us close our eyes 8) and let them get on with it ??? ??? If anyone as any problems how dare you complain because you are the majority & no nothing >:( >:( >:( LETS THROUGH THIS FORUM ARRANGE A MEETING OF ACTION, LETS DISCUSS A PLAN AND MOVE FORWARD OTHERWISE LETS DISCUSS DALAMAN TRANSFERS! >:( >:(
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Well done Chrissie and Tiger (to a certain extent)
I have been a resident in kalkan for 7 years and have 3 dogs of my own. The solution to this is not easy but as Tiger said no good moaning let something now be done. As much as I love dogs the problem in Kalkan is totally out of control. KAPSA do a great job, I don't think people appreciate how much time and effort the people at KAPSA put into this and they are trying their very best and have the utmost respect for what they are doing.
The dog problem still exists though and the Belediye need to get to grips with this big time. One fact is that half the street dogs are not street dogs they are owned. Sad fact that many dog owners think that sticking a collar on a dog is enough, letting it run in the streets unspayed is ok, it is not! Belediye need to get a dog licence programme in place, why!! 1. if people had to pay to keep a dog may discourage them from owning a dog in first place 2. Belediye would make some money from this 3. A registered dog that causes problems owner (hopefully) would be accountable. I know this would only solve part of the problem but it would be a start.
Eventually something awful is going to happen and it will and Kalkan will suffer for this.
Why cannot we get together residents, non residents etc and put a case to the Belediye. It is not a case of you live here and trying to dictate to Turkish what they should do, we all simply need to work together for goodness sake.
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I am not locking the topic at this stage as people seem to have various opinions to exchange but please can I remind everyone to consider what they post on a public forum and also to respect others views and act with courtesy or the topic will be removed.
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Before discovering Kalkan, I used to holiday in Skiathos, Greece. Albeit a small island, it had a real problem with stray dogs. A german lady who wanted to help with this problem was given permission to build kennels on some waste land, all the stray dogs were rounded up and taken to the kennels. Here they were cared for, and fed. Many were re-homed both in Greece and abroad and those that were not re-homed continued to stay in the kennels providing they were non aggressive. This project was totally voluntary therefore local businesses and tourists were asked for donations to support the stray dogs. This dramatically solved the problem in Skiathos re stray dogs. Maybe this could be a viable solution in Kalkan? Maybe the local authority could help to financially support KAPSA and donate an area of land for this purpose?
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Now let us bring this to a view of a forthcoming visitor to Kalkan. What are we supposed to think? I do not like dogs particularly, my 10 year old son is scared of them. Nothing I have read on this article is making me look forward to our holiday. I just wish I had stumbled on this topic before I booked. We like Kalkan-we were there 3 years ago and only saw a few dogs then. How many more people on reading this will not come to Kalkan? Someone came up with the idea of a "dogs home" idea. Surely this has to be the answer. Now instead of looking forward to our holiday it is filling us with apprehension. This is NOT a good advert for Kalkan and will start to show soon on visitor numbers.
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Kalkan is a fantastic holiday destination and this website is to promote it as one, however it is also a forum that residents use who will have a stronger view on certain issues, it's a very tough balancing act but I think balance is the word.... Don't let it put you off your holiday, I'm sure you will have a fantastic time!
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If we had a collection for a huge bus to come and put all of the dogs in, then take them on a long drive to the hills and let some other village be responsible for them i will donate the first 10 lire! I will also drive the bus.
I cannot believe that this forum allows such a ridiculous, irresponsible, selfish and downright fatuous statement to be posted. Quite apart from the fact that this woman is openly advocating breaking Turkish law, which is in itself an indictable offence, where exactly does she imagine dogs dumped in the hills would go? Does it not enter her mind that they would be hungry, would descend on some other village, where out of necessity they would attack chickens, sheep or goats?
Nobody has been attacked in Kalkan.
We don't even outlaw things that HAVE beyond dispute caused injury or death, the most obvious example of course being cars, motor bikes and lorries, which cause upwards of 6000 deaths a year, and around 250,000 serious injuries. Yet here we have suggestions that we should destroy living creatures because they MIGHT cause an injury, or, more likely, because they inconvenience some people.
KAPSA do an amazing job under very difficult circumstances, and without help from the authorities. How exactly they manage to keep going and keep their morale high when this forum constantly allows the same few people to snipe endlessly at them I do not know, but I take my hat off to them.
They are true heroes and heroines - and some of you posters should be hanging your heads in shame for your continuous negative griping and attacks on the few positive, good people who actually DO something to help others and to improve Kalkan.
And now to cap it all, it seems your constant negative postings are having the effect of putting off tourists considering visiting Kalkan.
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Again I reiterate enjoykalkan is here to promote Kalkan, however short of moderating each and every post it is impossible to stop such posts, perhaps those with positive views of Kalkan should post them to balance out the negatives!
If this forum is reducing visitor numbers as opposed increase them it will be pulled, simple!
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I don't believe visitor numbers will be affected by a discussion on a forum because 90% visitors probably won't even be aware of the forum. If tourists go to Kalkan and are affected by the dogs then they might not come back and that may in itself reduce visitor numbers. I only had one complaint from people staying at my place and that was for barking dogs. I go back to my earlier comment about bending the ear of the Belediye to get more involved. A couple of people since my comment have more of less said the same thing. If I was a resident I would happily try to get a petition going to present to them. Maybe at one of the KAPSA charity days they could draft a simple petition requesting the help of the Belediye and get everyone to sign up. I know they are well attended.
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I agree that KAPSA need help from the authorities and would certainly sign the petition to support this. I also think people would be more likely to donate to KAPSA if they thought the number of street dogs was actually going to be reduced - perhaps the 'dogs home' idea.
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I wish to say I agree with "spinal tap's whole post " and with "tiger's" call for action through this Forum.
The subject has been talked to death and becomming rather emotional (particularly on the posts I I have seen on facebook.
Facebook is NOT the place to put comments on this subject as they are likely to be spread much further abroad than in Enjoy Kalkan. Emotions run high when it comes to Animals, best to say "nowt" when one is enraged.
It would be interesting if investigations could be made re. my suggestion about dogs being used by the Army, Police and Customs.
My friend who veted stray dogs in the UK for this training could make up to £3000 - £4000 per month, not sure if that was before or after expenses, but even so, it could pay for itself, and the dogs would have a good life, at least the UK ones do because when they reach retirement age their handlers look after them, they are not just "put to sleep" It may not be possible to do this in Turkey, but please. lets ask, give it a thorough investigation.
Who knows Kalkan may become a World Leading Authority on what to do with strays, Maybe it could generate sufficient Income to cover the expense of running a "Home" for those dogs who are not suitable candidates.
I am sure I read in Zaman about a year ago that dogs were being bred for this purpose, seems wasteful of resources to me not to use existing animals.
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I can not believe that this has been allowed to go on condeming the the dogs to a mass cull each and every dog has a name loved by us all that live here.
this is all about villa renting and revenue in their pockets can not believe what i have read
Shall we go on to burglaries which is rife in the season which villa owners do not respond to.
Neither do I like to being kept awake all night by their guests having poolside parties and jumping in the pool at all hours for six months of the year.
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Lancs - several people have come up with constructive ideas so this thread is useful and may lead to some improvement in the plight of the animals. Especially if all can work together to get input from the Belediye. And to be fair it's a holiday destination at the end of the day so if you didn't want tourists around making a noise perhaps you should have chosen another destination. Burglaries are also mentioned quite often but from what I've read the Jandarme are doing a great job.
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Perhaps you should have chosen another destination if you did not want dogs around ???
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You should read my posts. I stated I love animals. I didn't say I didn't want any dogs around. They just need to be controlled for the benefit of all including the dogs. This doesn't mean putting them down. I'm quite happy with my choice of destination thanks. But to help you I will request my guests not to party beyond 2am! :)
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Wasnt wrong was I all about your rentals !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(
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I don't rent my property to get money in my back pocket. I don't make anything but enough to maintain it so hopefully one day I can spend more time out there myself. Do you have an issue with this? BTW are there some noisy guests keeping you up now since it's 03:30 there? You should get some sleep in before the season starts ;)
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sorry waiting for guests to arrive we work
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Not quite sure what that means but your arguments appear to be very lame. I will stick to my original argument that we should help KAPSA get assistance from the Belediye by whatever means.
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If you look at the postings on this subject - it is usually the same small number of people who comment - without offering any viable or practical solutions
Many are not resident here full time, so only have a snapshot of what the "problem" might actually be
Long term residents here have seen the progress KAPSA have made, as we now do not have starving sick looking animals wandering about which used to be the case in previous years.
The problem now, is not the fitness of the animals, merely their numbers - which is the real problem to be addressed.
KAPSA are doing what they think is the best policy - if anyone, like Wally has a different solution or wants to call a meeting or whatever - don't talk about it - DO IT - do not leave it to others
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I agree that KAPSA should get assistance in helping with the roaming dogs I don't agree with culling or poisoning them, which does happen, I personally think KAPSA do a FAB job with the winter feeding, helping sick and injured animals and the neutering program. Without them Kalkan animals would be in a mess.
I also agree with Lancs regarding the noise and dis-regard of some of the holiday makers, which when they start early hours in the morning does in fact kick off the dogs barking so it's lose lose situation. There is a lot of people who live in the villa's all year round and work
The dogs some times actually help regarding the burglaries We have our regular street dogs roaming and they actually put off any strangers they don't know. They only really bark when they either don't reconise people or when other dogs come on their turf. So having roaming street dogs are some times a good thing, they are actually protecting us. Maybe that's the answer we need to respect the dogs that actually roam near our homes, give them a bit of love ,some food and in turn they will look after us......
The situation here in Kalkan shouldn't put any one off in coming here for a holiday it's really far better then most holiday resorts. We have well feed and in most cases really lovable dogs. It's the same if you think about it with humans you always find some mean nasty people in amongs us. The only difference is that you don't want to cull them like you do the dog's....
Personally give me barking dogs any day against stupid half drunk idiots who wants to skinny dip at 3 in the morning shouting abuse to any one who ask's them to be quiet. And believe me that goes on quite a lot during the summer months..................................
I would like to add a BIG WELL DONE TO KAPSA regarding the amount of money they raised last Sunday. It was a great day and the atmosphere was Brill................. A good family (including the street dogs) day
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So still getting nowhere fast and many now sinking to playground levels of argument. Interesting suggestion that KAPSA are failing in their policy - do you not know what it stands for? Protection of Street Animals - I would say they are succeeding but as a voluntary organisation, official help is needed. The Mayor needs to be made aware of the worries of some residents and visitors and KAPSA would appear to be the organisation to do this. In my view, having spent many years in the civil service, petitions are a spectacular waste of paper.
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Sorry Eniste How are they failing in their policy?????? though I'm please to see that you have afreed that they are succeeding as a voluntry organisation, which is after all just what they are. They depend on people volunteering in all weathers to help catch sick injured animals and to go out to feed them.
I agree that the mayor needs to get fully behind them and the fact that a petition is a waste of paper in most cases. But KAPSA have and are doing every thing they can to help the street animals. I know I've seen what they do to help the animals that have been injured and hurt. And in some cases risk getting hurt themselves.
This topic always seems to appear around this time of the year, never during the winter................... interesting..............don't you think
I personally don't know the right answer to the problem, All I do know is it's no good every one blaming KAPSA, who is trying to do what they can to help the situation or even blaming each other.
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Sorry if my last post wasn't clear - an earlier post from Tiger suggested they were failing but I very much believe that KAPSA are succeeding fully in their protecting the street animals but now need official support and cooperation with control of numbers. Clearer?
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Firstly I find it laughable when residents complain of tourists making a noise when they are on holiday ???. Anyway, Eniste and tiamaria, you advise that petitions are a waste of time but agree the mayor/belediye should get more involved. Even KAPSA have stated they want this but have not got anywhere. How do you suggest we should pursue this aspect?
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You must be joking! I suggested the way to go to get the authorities involved and no one did anything. You've blown it! There's no point in writing any more letters, hundreds have been written in the past, they achieve nothing. You had an ideal opportunity to influence things and no one did anything about it. How does that song go?" Someones gotta go, but it's gotta be somebody else, not me." Either you all get together or give up!
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How about a simple face-to-face meeting? I am sure that KAPSA has had meetings with the Belediye before and I am confident that these carry more weight than a petition, however large, likely to be consigned to the 'circular file'.
How has anyone 'blown it' and who? Was there a deadline for sorting this situation out? To quote a song title rather than a lyric, 'These Things Take Time' (The Smiths).
I am inclined to agree with an earlier suggestion that we stick to discussing transfer shares on here, or would that lead to a demand for local government intervention if no-one offers to share transfer costs?
Once again, this site is called 'Enjoy Kalkan'. Any plans to change it to 'endure'?
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Ok I think everyone has now had ample time to say their bit, how about we go back to helping future visitors to the area as opposed painting a bleak picture!