Kalkan Turkey Forum - EnjoyKalkan.com
The Owners Lounge => Buying A Property & Real Estate => Topic started by: DRBD on September 21, 2007, 09:19:31 AM
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For advice to those of you who have not yet purchased property but maybe thinking of doing so, are there any words of advice members could give as to a) the first steps b) any bad experiences that could be passed on C) legal paper work etc. D) costs............................the list is endless
Obviously no advertising but some words of wisdom might be an advantage. : over to all
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We bought our villa 4 years ago, it all went very well.If you would like the name of our agent please email me. They are now our managing agents,and our villa is always spotless,they also arrange,painting,varnishing etc,they have been fantastic!
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DRBD - I know you had more than your fair share of problems - so how about you start off and tell us what what wrong and why and how and where newbie prospective buyers should learn from your experiences and what areas they should be particularly vigilant in etc etc. I''m sure you have plenty of good advice - and in the end - at least it worked out for you - but nobody should have to go through the sort of stress and hassles that you obviously did. I appreciate that you can''t name names - but general advice/things to watch out for - would be much appreciated I know!
Personally speaking - we were extremely lucky and had no problems - so ours is not typical (or is it?? ???0) and we were very fortunate to not have to deal with ANY estate agents - which must be a good thing ;) but i know we were very lucky - all I would say to prospective buyers is - homework, homework, homework as regards prices, deals, location, estate agents etc. I spent 1 entire week in February and looked at 45 villas with various people (both agents and private people) so by the end of the week I was pretty clued up as to prices, locations, what to watch out for etc etc and I did p*** some agents off by knowing exactly what was what AND the real price so that they couldn''t pull the wool.... :P I think sometimes people forget their brains on holiday - go with 1 agent - and look at 1 house, fall in love and buy purely on spec - which fortunately for some - it works out but for others they have been well and truly ripped!! :-[
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Hi DRBD - that is a very sad tale and one I hope never has to be repeated by anybody else. What do you think are the most critical things that people should watch out for when purchasing their property - say your list of the 5 most important Do''s and Don''ts...
It is worrying that this builder and his wife are still trading in Kalkan - as presumably other people could fall into the same trap...or is that not possible??
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to write this!
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Here''s my thoughts and experiences.
1) Do not pay any more than a 5% deposit. Most Estate Agents will tell you that 10% is the norm.
2) Do NOT agree to any form of interim payment if you are buying a property that is already built or is a resale. This is not normal practise in Turkey despite what the Estate Agent might tell you. We fell for this one, and after we made the interim payment we were then subjected to demands, by the Vendor, for over £100K in actual cash for the final payment!!! When we refused to pay, we were then subjected to further demands/threats, from them, that the price would go up by £30K to pay the their Tax Bill!!! Luckily we had a very good Turkish Lawyer here in the UK, who got all our money back. But it was a very stressfull period. I think that the Estate Agent probably gets a cut of his fees at each payment.
3) Always assume that the price being asked by the Estate Agent is anywhere from 10% to 20% above what the property is actually worth, maybe even more.
4) The Estate Agent takes a 3% Fee from both the Vendor and Purchaser, and for this is supposed to be impartial and look after both parties interests. In reality, if everything goes OK then this does happen. But, if it goes wrong, then the Estate Agent really is completely inadequate. You will need a Lawyer.
5) Always employ a Lawyer, preferably one that is based here in the UK. Kalkan is a small town and everyone knows each other and they regularly have to work with each other. Again, if everything goes well, you won''t have a problem, but if it goes wrong then !!!!!
6) Remember underdeclaration of a property''s value may give you a Capital Gains Tax problem when you come to sell it, particularly if you sell within the five year period. After this, under current legislation, you will not be subject to Capital Gains Tax, but this may very well change as Turkey lines it tax system up with Europe prior to EC membership.
7) The main point of the buying process in Turkey is a clean Title and to get the TAPU in your name. Parting with too much money, too soon, disadvantages the Buyer, especially as you will be some 2000 miles away.
8) Always approach buying a property, as you would at home, keep your wits about you. Don''t be seduced by all the promises etc that will be made to you. Remember, at some point either you or your heirs will have to sell it.
9) Estate Agents will try and convice you that you are their new Best Friend. Do not worry about upsetting them. They will tell you anything they think that you want to hear, but when you tell them something that they don''t like, they act offended and will sulk. Its just an act. Some of them are a like Timeshare Salesmen.
Good luck to all of you who decide to buy.
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Thanks for that post Pete, it was really informative. Fortunately we didn''t encounter any problems but I know DRBD had a very torrid time. This is useful for anyone considering a purchase.
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There are several possible pitfalls regarding the land purchase itself. In some areas, such as Islamlar, Akbel and the upper parts of Kalkan just below the Berzigan road, it was the case and might still be that the land could be sold but the house tapu could not be had. These lands were zoned as agricultural or non-residential and in theory, all building was illegal. This is still true in many parts of the areas surrounding Kalkan, including Akbel. You can own the land but not the house because the house cannot have a tapu.
Prospective buyers often were not told beforehand that they could not have title to the house, i.e., were building and planning to live in an illegally built house. In Islamlar, for example, you can only have the house tapu if you have a registered company, i.e., the company owns the house, but it cannot be registered to an individual.
Some builders built illegally knowing that the government would not tear down the house, but they neglected to tell the buyer that they could not get the house tapu. Worse, in a few cases, ''trusted friends'' took money from their foreign buyers, used it to buy land and on the land built a house which they then put into their own names, never giving the tapu to the rightful owners. This is outright theft, and there have been a few cases like that. A very small percentage of the total buildings constructed, but in every case due to misplaced trust and a lack of due diligence on the part of the buyer. There is a very sad story about a British woman who handed over to her Turkish lover all her life''s saving for the house that she hoped to one day live in with him. He bought the land, built the house, put it into his name and told her she could not enter, basically left her destitute. She died last year without ever having set foot in the house her money built.
This is not to say all estate agents or contractors are all dishonest or thieves! The vast majority of sales and purchases go smoothly and have no problems. We are only advising what to be aware of. It is not the case that the estate agents get a cut from each interim payment. The estate agent gets whatever fee he has agreed on from buyer and seller. It should be 3% each but some agents have asked the seller for more than 3%.
As Pete says, you should not buy without the help of a lawyer in the UK or at least not from Kalkan. Preferably a Turkish lawyer who not only speaks the language but knows what to look for. I strongly suggest that anyone thinking of buying first carefully read what''s written here: http://www.turkisheconomy.org.uk/buyingproperty/property.html (http://www.turkisheconomy.org.uk/buyingproperty/property.html)
It is not at all uncommon for sellers to ask for the last and largest payment in cash. Of course, they are trying to avoid taxes. It is quite true that they will pay around £30K in taxes. The Turkish gov is now trying to determine who are the sellers and contractors receiving cash payments. It has been reported that in the Bodrum area, gov tax inspectors are going to private villas and asking the owners to prove how they paid for their house. Show bank statements that the money went through a bank and was not paid in cash. The tax office is taking many contractors to court, contractors from all over Turkey basically for underdeclaration of earnings. The fines are astronomical and the court cases can go on for years and years.
Beyond the legalities, there are some other things to ask about. You should enquire if there is insulation inside the walls, something frequently overlooked to save money. Many houses are built only with bricks covered directly with cement and plastered on the inside. They leak, they develop mold if left closed and not infrequently the walls and / or the roof have to be redone. And of course they are unlivable in winter with damp walls and no heating.
The second thing to check carefully is the plumbing. Does it all work -- every faucet, toilet and shower -- as it should? Something the fixtures are put in but not connected to the water, or not connected to the hot water, or connected wrongly.
Third, does the house / apartment have a foundation? This may seem obvious, it''s not. Some houses have been built sitting directly on the ground. Any movement of the ground and the walls crack.
Generally, the quality of build has gone up over the past 5 years, but frequently, to save money contractors do everything to make the outside look appealing but inside the walls, under the floor and under the roof they cut every corner to build cheaply.
Having said all the above, few are the buyers who encounter these problems but each single case quickly becomes a story passed around. Most of us have had satisfactory purchases or builds, so don''t mean to scare off prospective buyers.
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Having purchased an apartment a couple of years ago we found there was a tremendous difference in the quality of the buildings we looked at. Cheap price almost always mean cheap build quality. They all looked great when you first looked at them but on close inspection you could see the poor build quality in some of the properties.
You need to know what the builder has built in previous years. Go and have a look at these properties, check with people who live in them if possible, ask around - the locals know lots of information. You wouldn''t use a builder at home with no recommendation or references so don''t do it in Turkey.
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When our venture started it was now 4.5years ago and things have improved with the quality of materials and building. We as stated started from scratch so were not able to view such things at the time of building and there were not so many properties being build at the time, it was buy off plan. Things are so much different now and the materials etc we have had to replace are of a very high quality. Anyway hard lesson learnt and in less than 48hrs we be there enjoying (just hope no
flight delays). ;D
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Might see you there DRBD!
Lorretta.
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Hope so Loretta that would be nice. :)
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We have had no problems in Turkey but our problem has been a rather slow expensive lawyer in the UK. Granted she is thorough and I have every confidence she is familiar with Turkish law as she is Turksih but it has taken a full year and we have still not completed.Kalkan Horizon the estate agents have been helpful and patient. Often I found myself contacting them to sort things out as it was quicker and cheaper. So my advice would be yes to a solicitor as it gives peace of mind but choose carefully. I would suggest using the experience of many of the contributors of this site as I would imagine many have bought successfully with no problems.
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Our Solicitor over here in the UK was great, she has a brother in Turkey, so they worked together, what a team, - made our lives easier
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DRBD, Am thinking for living in your part of town, so was very pleased to read your topic. If you have any info or can offer me more help, please fill free to email me.
Regards Martyn
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Just read your experiences DRDB, what a nightmare,
we have had our place for 4 years now, very straightforward process through Bridget & sakir @ Blacklions, although it must have helped that we are both Turkish Nationals so no military checks etc ,
Linda
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martyn - have pm''d you.
Linda - thanks, nightmare it was and still is for some, perhaps a horror storey is a more appropriate phrase, just hope the post helps others not to go and get involved with the wrong people, having just returned have heard some not so good updates on this company :(
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Hi DRBD, Jon and other forum members - is it not possible to name this company - because I for one have no idea who you are talking about and although I have sucessfully purchased - I am recommending agents and companies to other potential purchasers and would therefore be gutted if I were to recommend ''this company''. I would have thought that a company such as this should be named - but if you feel that is not appropriate then - DRBD could you PM me as I really am most anxious not to recommend them to people - and god forbid - friends who are thinking of buying in Kalkan..... :-[ :-[
It is certainly such a salutory tale than nobody should ever have to go through this experience again if it can be avoided....
:-X
Cheers!
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I am just about to purchase property in Kalkan having stayed at the Regency for the past 7 years we are buying one of the apartments next door to it and I would like to speak to someone who already owns one can you help me please
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I am purchasing one of the apartments near the Regency Hotel from Ulec do I need a solicitor he has already sent me a contract and asked for 10% deposit can anyone help a novice, I would be very grateful
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Hi Sue
Jik, another Forum member has bought one of the apartments next to the Regency, I''m sure she will give you some advice. She is actually in Kalkan this week but I will let her know that you have posted for info when she gets back.
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Personally would always recommend engaging a solicitor, even if its to just check out your contract.
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We purchased 5 years ago, didn''t have to use estate agents as we bought at Patara Prince direct from architect. We used a solicitor in London who specialised in foreign property. They had a turkish department and our solicitor was turkish and handled all the negotiations in turkish, with the benefit of english speaking at this end. Yes they were expensive but for peace of mind invaluable. We knew they had our interests at heart . Would have been very wary of local solicitors.
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Hi Msr - yes - maybe 5 years ago - you would have been right to be wary of local solicitors especially as I understand there was no english speaking lawyer in town - however we bought 2 years ago and used Alpaslan Gunal - we have discussed him and his contact details on another thread - and others too on this forum have used him. I recommend him but I note that his prices are rising..along with the number of villas going up..!! LOL! :o We are also using him to do our turkish wills - which is an essential and essential to be drawn up by somebody who is familiar with turkish inheritance laws.!!
Cheers!
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We also used Alp, but had a bit of bother last autumn with timings. There were times when we''d email and have to wait weeks for a response.Bridget was saying he is now doing his own property development so not as committed as before. Looks like solicitors in Fethiye are faster nowadays
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We used Everything Legal in Fethiye for our wills and they were great. The solicitor is Turkish and her sister, who is married to an English man, does the translation and is a notery and also sorts that out with you. The husband then checked the document for spelling/grammar mistakes. Our wills were difficult as we both have children from previous marriages and they were excellent at working out the best way to explain our complicated wishes. It only took a few hours to complete the process.
We already have a property but wish we had known about them when we purchased our apartment as we would have been happy to use them for the buying process.
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As we still have to arrange a Turkish will, I would be intersested in hearing from anyone who has already gone through the process about how much we can expect to pay.
Regards
Alan
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Hi Alan.
We made our Turkish will last November and we too used Everything Legal in Fethiye, It only took a couple of hours and if you make the appointment for a Tuesday like we did you can also do the market!!
The cost for everything was 400 Turkish lira.
If you have a look at Fethiye times.com and click on living and then click in to legal this will tell you all about it, and also their email address, Delik speaks very good English, and if you send her a email she will respond back to you with in a couple of days.
Hope this helps
Amanda
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Wow I can''t believe what you paid for your will.
We have been quoted 2400ytl for ours. Think we will be sorting ours in Fethiye next time we are out.
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When I spoke to Alp about a will he quoted us £900, so the lady in Fethiye looks like she might get our business as well
Bevjam
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I have just had a look at the Fethiye times web site and it looks like the email address for Delik is no longer on there so here it is: everythingleagal@hotmail.co.uk. She told us last November that quite a few People who have got property in Kalkan had made a will through her.
This just proves to shop around, even if you add the cost of the car hire and the fuel you will still be QUIDS in!!
Amanda
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We made our wills in October 07 and it cost 800ytl in total for the two wills (not each!). This included the solicitor, translator & notary fees. They said they had a few people coming from Kalkan because it cost a lot more to be done in Kalkan. Looking at the charge Alp has quoted you it is well worth the journey.
The process took about 2.5 to 3 hours in total. Their office is really easy to get to, it''''s not far from the market (if you book your appointment for a Tuesday you can do the market as well). We went by car but it isn''''t too far from the bus station I believe. You need to take your passports with you, we also took our Tapu but can''''t remember if it was needed. You are leaving your ''''assets in Turkey'''' rather than a particular property. I do remember we needed the full postal address of the property however as it is put on the documents as your address in Turkey.
To contact them to get a quote their email is everythinglegal@hotmail.co.uk and the solicitor''''s name is Melek and her sister''''s name is Dilek (translator & notary). Can''''t remember Dilek''''s husband''''s name. I arranged the appointment by email and they gave us directions. The translator speaks very good English and the atmosphere was very relaxed and friendly.
Hope this helps.
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We arranged our wills in September 2006 with Bilgin (solicitor) who''s office is above the mini market at the bottom of Kalamar Road. The total cost for both wills was 970ytl and included notary, translator, solicitor''s fee and hospital fee. Apparently we had to obtain certificates from the hospital to confirm we were sane!!!! We went with Bilgin to the hospital/clinic on Kalamar Road and were told to wait outside while he went in and about 20 mins later he emerged with our certificates without them even seeing us! We then went to Kas to the notary''s office and everything was completed within a couple of hours.
Used the same solicitor for the purchase of our property in 2005 and found him very good.
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We had been told by someone who had their will done in Kalkan about the doctor bit but the solicitor in Fethyie said there was absolutely no need for the doctor to say you were of sound mind (we may have failed this bit if he met us!) unless there was some doubt about it.
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Must have taken one look at us and thought he''d better be on the safe side!!! :laugh:
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Have just a quote out of Alp - c.2000 ytl - £800 odd - so he won''t be getting our business - and I have told him that...!! So we will be trying Everything Legal too!
thanks for the heads up!!
Cheers!
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We are looking at buying an apartment in the Yelken development, can any one tell me about this complex, is it suitable for children?
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Does anyone have a different email address, other than quoted above for Everythin Legal, as I''ve just received a delivery failure report? Many thanks
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Charlie - which e-mail did you use...I just e-mailed today - everythinglegal@hotmail.co.uk and haven''t had a failure report...(yet anyway....) - please let me know how you get on as I am trying to contact them too..!!
Cheers!
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Thanks for that Felicity. I copied and pasted from Begonvil''s message above and after checking have noticed there''s an extra ''a'' in the address so have resent. Hopefully it will be ok this time. Cheers.
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We are looking at buying an apartment in the Yelken development, can any one tell me about this complex, is it suitable for children?
I think there may be a few Yelken owners on this forum who may be able to help.
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Hi doddit
We have one of the Yelken apartments - in fact, we were the first to buy!
We love it there and so does our 5 year old granddaughter. There are others with young children too.
Send us a message if you want more information.
Ros
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This was the same deal we had with Everything Legal but I forgot the cost of the 2 witnesses who we had to pay at the notary. We will use them for anything legal in the future. We found them very competent, friendly and efficient.
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Yes i also forgot to mention the cost of the 2 witnesses who you pay at the notary, looks like their fee has gone up slightly, it was 10YTL each last November.
We too would not hesitate to use them in future regarding anything legal
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What is the best way of contacting everythinglegal? We tried the email address but have never had a reply.
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Jayne - I would try again - I e-mailed them and got a pretty swift reply and have made an appointment to visit them next week.!! everythinglegal@hotmail.co.uk
Cheers!
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We visited Everything Legal last week and also made our wills. The cost for the witnesses was 15 lira each and the notary fee had just gone up, from memory I think it was 455 lira. We dealt with Dilek who speaks great English. Dilek is the official translator and her sister is the lawyer, she had been called urgently to court the day we were there. Very straightforward process and would definitely use the company again. And yes Jane do email again, I can only assume they never recieved your email as we got an immediate response.
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Thanks guys, I will try again.
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can anyone helpwith the name of a Solicitor who may be able to help as I am purchasing a property in Kalkan which is going very badly wrong. 2 years in the making and all sorts of political issues with the architect and the landowner. I do not want to use a solicitor in Kalkan because I believe they are all in cahoot. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!
Linda
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Hi Linda - Everythinglegal - I can definitely recommend - and being out of Kalkan (in Fethiye) will help.... Their contact details are on this thread - we used them for our will and wish we had used them for everything else. They spoke to us about how they had helped various people in your predicament - so they will be able to help you - I''m sure..!!
I''m so sorry you are going through this - what a nightmare - I just thank our lucky stars that we were fortunate not to encounter any of the sort of problems you are referring to..
Good luck and do contact Everythinglegal - and let us know how you get on!
Cheers!
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I can also recommend Everything Legal in Fethiye. They did our wills in October but they said they hadn''t lost a case yet regarding Tapus and builders. Their fees were reasonable.