Kalkan Turkey Forum - EnjoyKalkan.com
Kalkan Discussion => Politics & Debate => Topic started by: kalkan4eva on March 12, 2016, 12:04:57 AM
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I appreciate you should never talk politics and/or religion but as we are in Kalkan for the Referendum and need to apply for a postal vote, just wondered where we all are on the in/out vote. I'm still one YouGov would class as "Undecided"....compelling arguments on both sides if you avoid the razzmatazz.
Could be worse...we could be tasked with choosing between Hilary or Donald :o :o
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On the fence...I'm of the opinion that NEITHER side has made any truly compelling arguments yet.
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I appreciate you should never talk politics and/or religion but as we are in Kalkan for the Referendum and need to apply for a postal vote, just wondered where we all are on the in/out vote. I'm still one YouGov would class as "Undecided"....compelling arguments on both sides if you avoid the razzmatazz.
Could be worse...we could be tasked with choosing between Hilary or Donald :o :o
Lucky you, I would love to be in Kalkan in the run up to the referendum. It's going to be unbearable here. Hours and hours of tangential and inconclusive arguments from both sides, that in the end leave us none the wiser as to what side we should be voting for.
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Hoooray!!! I'm in kalkan when voting is on .(postal vote for us too)...I'm already out as i have never been very good at being European .I see myself as British and when asked English ;) >:D
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Undecided but gut feeling is we should stay in. I don't think Turkey should be admitted though....
pw
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Out
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OUT for me too!
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I'm an out too, very much along the lines of Blue Lizard ! I can never find a drop down list for English though you can be Welsh, Irish or Scottish. ::)
And although I suppose I shouldn't have a view if I don't want to be in it but don't think Turkey should be allowed to join. It isn't Europe for a start but I don't think it will do Turkey any favours either.
I'd have voted not to join the Common Market but missed the age to vote by a matter of weeks. We did do debates in school though so I researched it at the time. Guess I've never changed my opinion. ;D
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I think i'm more a 'whats the point of leaving' than a yes but found this useful article
http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-br...
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I'm an 'in ' girl.....the thought of the financial and economical uncertainty if we come out worries me....a lot!
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You can work out for yourself which side of the fence this comes from:
Financial Uncertainty? Haven't we had that consistently for the past millennia, or so? Why will financial uncertainty disappear if we're in? The current mess occurred while in the EU. Would leaving be any different?
Employment losses. My last three employers closed their organisations in the UK and moved them to Holland, Germany and Spain. So no security there, then.
Having a say in the EU? We're one of 28 countries. The UK has not won one vote YET. The only thing we have is a veto, and most of the time we're outvoted on that as well.
Easy travel? Note that most of you travel to Turkey, hence why you're on this forum. Was travelling that difficult? And does going to Thailand, Australia, or the USA and not being in the EU stop you going?
Security? The largest Intelligence Network is run by the USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. The EU taps into it. Are they going to not communicate with us, at their own detriment? Of course not!
Exports. We import more than we export to the EU. Not being in the EU may mean that we would make our own washing machines again (we currently don't), among other things; and if we have less access to EU farm produce, it would mean our farmers would have to grow more and not be paid subsidies not to grow things. To say nothing of probably creating more jobs to make the things cheaper than we can get them from the EU. The rest of the world could do business with us, and vise versa without the enormous tariffs the EU imposes on the UK to export outside the EU.
Immigration? the Home Office and HM Government don't see immigration as a priority, so nothing will change there. The camps will stay in France. The argument that the camps would move to Dover don't work, else there'd be camps outside Heathrow and Gatwick, etc. The Ferry companies and Eurostar would have to actually take some responsibility like Airlines have to.
Finally, the EU appears to be a sclerotic and corrupt organisation. Just like all Governments. The only difference is that you can't change anything and their finances are even worse than ours.
Really, this is about Sovereignty. 60+% of our laws are stamped through Parliament as EU directives. If we regain sovereignty, we can try to do something about ALL of the above without being manipulated by edict from without. And you can get rid of bad government. Who's your MEP? I bet you don't know. And has the governance of the EU really changed since 1975?
I voted to join the EEC, not the EU. Nobody told me, or mentioned Federalism, or ever-closer-union. Maastricht, Lisbon and the other treaties were suppressed because you weren't deemed smart enough to understand (or they didn't want you the read the confusing small print). We've been misled since 1971, and nothing's changed.
Hope that helps. >:D >:D
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The EU was supposed to be a trading partnership between states not a Sovereignty grab via the back door time and time again = Definitely Out
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I think we are big enough and powerful enough to look after ourselves.......its out for me as well.
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Excellent summary Chris_s, I think you've got it spot on there. But there's so much scaremongering and so many people who have never experienced the UK outside the EU, and "scared" of trading with the rest of the world, I think unfortunately we'll end up staying in.
But the way things are going the whole thing will fall apart one day. Does anyone seriously think Greece's problems have been resolved? Their debt will end up having to be written off at great cost to other member states.
As to Turkey joining, I think not! Apart from their human rights record, can anyone see Turks going along with Europes petty rules and regulations??
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Voted not to join and will vote out!
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Out!
EU is a business community. The latest act of democracy was the Dutch referendum held more than 10 years ago. The main EU countries prime ministers seat and decide the destiny of 550 millions of citizens with an EU parliament which is very expensive and useless.
On the other side, UK businesses enjoy freedom of zero hours contracts offered to migrants who are willing to accept jobs which British people will unlikely to accept, unless paid more and they eventually stay unemployed indefinetely. We are part of Europe but we don't need this kind of EU.
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You can work out for yourself which side of the fence this comes from:
Financial Uncertainty? Haven't we had that consistently for the past millennia, or so? Why will financial uncertainty disappear if we're in? The current mess occurred while in the EU. Would leaving be any different?
Employment losses. My last three employers closed their organisations in the UK and moved them to Holland, Germany and Spain. So no security there, then.
Having a say in the EU? We're one of 28 countries. The UK has not won one vote YET. The only thing we have is a veto, and most of the time we're outvoted on that as well.
Easy travel? Note that most of you travel to Turkey, hence why you're on this forum. Was travelling that difficult? And does going to Thailand, Australia, or the USA and not being in the EU stop you going?
Security? The largest Intelligence Network is run by the USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. The EU taps into it. Are they going to not communicate with us, at their own detriment? Of course not!
Exports. We import more than we export to the EU. Not being in the EU may mean that we would make our own washing machines again (we currently don't), among other things; and if we have less access to EU farm produce, it would mean our farmers would have to grow more and not be paid subsidies not to grow things. To say nothing of probably creating more jobs to make the things cheaper than we can get them from the EU. The rest of the world could do business with us, and vise versa without the enormous tariffs the EU imposes on the UK to export outside the EU.
Immigration? the Home Office and HM Government don't see immigration as a priority, so nothing will change there. The camps will stay in France. The argument that the camps would move to Dover don't work, else there'd be camps outside Heathrow and Gatwick, etc. The Ferry companies and Eurostar would have to actually take some responsibility like Airlines have to.
Finally, the EU appears to be a sclerotic and corrupt organisation. Just like all Governments. The only difference is that you can't change anything and their finances are even worse than ours.
Really, this is about Sovereignty. 60+% of our laws are stamped through Parliament as EU directives. If we regain sovereignty, we can try to do something about ALL of the above without being manipulated by edict from without. And you can get rid of bad government. Who's your MEP? I bet you don't know. And has the governance of the EU really changed since 1975?
I voted to join the EEC, not the EU. Nobody told me, or mentioned Federalism, or ever-closer-union. Maastricht, Lisbon and the other treaties were suppressed because you weren't deemed smart enough to understand (or they didn't want you the read the confusing small print). We've been misled since 1971, and nothing's changed.
Hope that helps. >:D >:D
I was going to list my reasons for voting out but this sums it up much better than I could of done...
DEF OUT
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At the moment there are too many assumptions being made about what out will look like that ignore the fact that any deal will have to approved by all 27 remaining states, each of whom will have their own axes to grind and a veto to wield if they don't get their way. A cynic might think that the process was deliberately designed this way to ensure that any leaving states are suitably punished
Chris two comments on your list.
The last figure I saw was that the UK is on the winning side in 85-90% of EU votes
We will only get our sovereignty back if we leave the single market, so far I have not heard anyone proposing that. Even
Boris is now talking about aiming for some sort of associate EU membership
Unless the exit camp can provide a compelling and realistic vision of what out will actually look like (which I doubt they can) I will be voting in.
You can work out for yourself which side of the fence this comes from:
Financial Uncertainty? Haven't we had that consistently for the past millennia, or so? Why will financial uncertainty disappear if we're in? The current mess occurred while in the EU. Would leaving be any different?
Employment losses. My last three employers closed their organisations in the UK and moved them to Holland, Germany and Spain. So no security there, then.
Having a say in the EU? We're one of 28 countries. The UK has not won one vote YET. The only thing we have is a veto, and most of the time we're outvoted on that as well.
Easy travel? Note that most of you travel to Turkey, hence why you're on this forum. Was travelling that difficult? And does going to Thailand, Australia, or the USA and not being in the EU stop you going?
Security? The largest Intelligence Network is run by the USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. The EU taps into it. Are they going to not communicate with us, at their own detriment? Of course not!
Exports. We import more than we export to the EU. Not being in the EU may mean that we would make our own washing machines again (we currently don't), among other things; and if we have less access to EU farm produce, it would mean our farmers would have to grow more and not be paid subsidies not to grow things. To say nothing of probably creating more jobs to make the things cheaper than we can get them from the EU. The rest of the world could do business with us, and vise versa without the enormous tariffs the EU imposes on the UK to export outside the EU.
Immigration? the Home Office and HM Government don't see immigration as a priority, so nothing will change there. The camps will stay in France. The argument that the camps would move to Dover don't work, else there'd be camps outside Heathrow and Gatwick, etc. The Ferry companies and Eurostar would have to actually take some responsibility like Airlines have to.
Finally, the EU appears to be a sclerotic and corrupt organisation. Just like all Governments. The only difference is that you can't change anything and their finances are even worse than ours.
Really, this is about Sovereignty. 60+% of our laws are stamped through Parliament as EU directives. If we regain sovereignty, we can try to do something about ALL of the above without being manipulated by edict from without. And you can get rid of bad government. Who's your MEP? I bet you don't know. And has the governance of the EU really changed since 1975?
I voted to join the EEC, not the EU. Nobody told me, or mentioned Federalism, or ever-closer-union. Maastricht, Lisbon and the other treaties were suppressed because you weren't deemed smart enough to understand (or they didn't want you the read the confusing small print). We've been misled since 1971, and nothing's changed.
Hope that helps. >:D >:D
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after much deliberation I am giving up and coming out on the side Who makes it possible to sell the cheapest EFES in all the land
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And what do you suppose staying in will look like in 5 years time? Will Greece, Spain and Portugal still be in or will the whole thing have fallen apart
Why , do you suppose, no one is prepared to sign off the EU accounts?
Uncertainty - yes on both sides.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for staying in, other than the tired old argument - better the devil you know. Surely this is the time for some vision.
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I for one am more than happy to share my hard earned savings and pension with all those in the EU who have not saved a penny or paid any taxes and why not ! I always thought the EU was all wealth redistribution = robbing the UK to give to everyone else
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What I don't understand is this:
Before Cameron negotiated the "exclusive deal" he was at pains to point out that he would recommend that we leave, if the deal wasn't forthcoming ... but now he is saying that to leave would be the gravest mistake. So it was ok to consider leaving then (ie three months ago) but not now?
I smell something fishy.
As I said, I am still on the fence.... but to me, the stinging nettles are starting to look bigger on the remain side than on the leave side.
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Cameron went to Europe demanding a Banquet..he got a Big Mac!.. now he is trying to convince everyone he loves Burgers >:D