Kalkan Turkey Forum - EnjoyKalkan.com
Kalkan Discussion => Politics & Debate => Topic started by: kalkanview on September 23, 2012, 07:42:51 AM
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I don't understand.
Many people want the street dogs to be supported with food and veterinary care.
Many other people find well behaved dogs with responsible owners a pleasure but strongly dislike feral dogs running around unchecked, causing unhygienic mess, causing accidents, chasing motor vehicles, feeling frightened of attack, causing unwanted noise to residents, begging at restaurant tables etc.
So if these dogs were restricted to "shelters" and/or "natural life parks" isn't that the best of both worlds? Kapsa and its supporters can continue their good work looking after the dogs, they can also continue with local education which is clearly needed and Kalkan can become a true upmarket resort improving the financial well being of its residents by attracting more visitors with a higher average spend.
What's the problem?
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Most authorıtıes do nothıng to help the dogs that are currently ın existing shelters, so what do you imagine these natural life parks wıll be like???
Its just a licence to dump dogs and maybe even cats ın forests.Out of sıght out of mind!!!!
Maybe it would be a good idea to read some of the comments on the varıous petitions goıng around at the moment and see what many tourists and turkish are sayıng.Turkey would be doıng ıtself no favours ıf this becomes law.Even knowledgable turkısh lawmakers are agaınst the change,as they see the progress made where TNR has been undertaken by the local authorıty together wıth volunteers,long term.
There are a number of ınterestıng and up to date artıcles on thıs subject,Kalkanvıew - take the tıme to read them before you assume that Kalkan wıll suddenly change ınto a more upmarket resort wıthout dogs and cats on the streets - Tourısts ın town, every day, are congratulatıng the turkısh locals on theır attıtude and care of the healthy,neutered,rabıes vaccınated and frıendly anımals.
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Dammed if you do , dammed if you don't ! Agree with kalkanview, Got to give it a chance
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Pesky iPad keyboard results in bad spelling --damned not dammed!
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I agree with KalkanView - it should be given a chance. It is only speculation that it would be a death penalty for street animals. If the centres are managed like the one in Fethiye then I don't see and issue and if there are so many animal lovers around surely they wouldn't allow these centres to get into such a condition as suggested. But obviously it is up to the individual how they feel and decide if they want to support Kapsa's protest.
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The center in Fethiye is small and privately funded by one woman, as I was told. The government-proposed center may not be staffed at all and will certainly not be near any main town.
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This isnt Kapsas protest,its the protests of 100s and 1000s of people and organisations in Turkey and overseas.
Kapsa have been asking the belidye to open a temporary centre,such as the one in Fethiye for many years.It was originally privatelly funded but was then handed over the belidye who now run and fund it for the care of puppies and older dogs unsuitable for the streets.Jointly the belidye and volunteers run a very successful TNR programme in Fethiye.This has been run for many years and was probably the first in Turkey.
The law will no longer allow such shelters as the one in Fethiye but will place ALL dogs and maybe cats in remote forest locations!!!!
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The government is not proposing shelters like the one in Fethiye. The draft amendment states that animals will be placed in shelters until they are full then the remaining animals will be put into these ‘parks’ which will be fenced off areas of forest miles from populated areas. There are estimated to be over 150,000 street dogs in İstanbul alone, do you really think they can all be housed in Fethiye style shelters? The shelter in Fethiye is now run by the belediye and houses only those dogs that cannot survive on the street ie puppies, sick, infirm or ex owned dogs. All others are neutered and returned to the area from where they came. I visited recently and was horrified to find it full of Retrievers and Labradors whose owners have obviously realised a bit late that dog ownership was not for them.
Got to give it a chance
Shall I tell you what giving it a chance would mean? The Kalkan Belediye would find it easy to round up all the street dogs in Kalkan as they are all tame (the street cats may be more of a problem though!) So they would be shipped off to these lovely natural parks where they will die lovely natural deaths from starvation and disease because they are proposing that these parks are not going to be near inhabited areas so how are the animals going to be fed every day?! But still that’s OK because it’s supposedly better for tourism!
But when the streets fill up in a couple of months with feral dogs that the other belediyes haven't managed to catch, or puppies dumped from villages whose Muhtars can't be bothered to take them to the 'natural life parks' as Kalkan is so much closer, then what will happen? It won't be long before the powers that be realise that this plan hasn't worked. Then they will do yet another U turn but in the mean time irreparable damage to Turkey's image abroad and to tourism and the tame, neutered and well loved street animals of Kalkan will have become pointless victims of badly thought out political policy! Meanwhile Kalkan street animal management will have been set back years. Let’s face it the problem in Turkey is, and has always been the fact that laws are not enforced! If every town, village and hamlet in Turkey had abided by the 5199 law and had carried out Trap, neuter and return since it came out in 2004 then there would no longer be a street animal problem in Turkey.
We recently went through our registry of dogs and found that had we not had any new dogs arrive in Kalkan since we set up Kapsa 4 years ago there would be less than 25 street dogs in the Kalkan area now. But as long as only some municipalities abide by the law (whichever law) there will always be dogs coming in from other areas! This new law will make no difference on that score.
Going back to how this law would effect tourism, Kalkanview I really urge you so look at the comments many people/tourists have made regarding the proposed amendments to 5199. A great many say that they would never set foot in Turkey again if this law goes through. The petition in English has only been on line for about 3 days and already 2,000 people have signed it http://www.change.org/petitions/the-prime-minister-of-turkey-stop-turkey-s-proposed-death-camps-for-stray-animals. The petition in Turkish http://www.sessizkalmasucaortakolma.com/dilekce/dilekce_detay.asp?id=1311 has already got over 62,000 signatures which shows that it is not just us sentimental Brits that don't want this barbaric law to go through.
Please people don't be naive - this cruel and humane law if allowed to go through will have a negative effect on all of us with interest in Kalkan, vested or otherwise!
http://www.turkishliving.com/forums/things-going-your-area/62645-nationwide-protests-against-proposed-changes-animal-protection-law-no-5199-a.html
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100's and 1000's of tourists, resident ex-pats and I am sure Turks just want safe and quiet streets and would be happy to have healthy and neutered dogs reared out of town. All the money Kapsa raises will be used in the shelters instead. Perfect, happy dogs in a safer environment and therefore happy humans and a more prosperous Kalkan.
Friendly? In the past week my wife was approached too aggressively from a dog who appeared between Kalamaki and "V&B". I had to shout at it aggressively to get it to go. Just the other day I used the long steps that come down from Ortaalan to the road that passes by the side of the school. At the bottom of the steps is a house where there are about 5 apparently owned dogs. One has a missing front leg another had a front leg bandaged. The group were worryingly aggressive and although I have never thrown anything at a dog I had to go through the action of picking up 4 or 5 stones to get them to go away.
As soon as the season finishes and November arrives the dogs congregate into larger packs and the aggression is even worse.
These experiences are totally unacceptable and the new proposed regulations are therefore a welcome alternative.
Also I have read plenty on the internet thank you. I read about Turkish people having cultural and religious issues with dogs lack of cleanliness in the home which presumably explains all the owned dogs roaming free round Kalkan (so why have them?). I read about areas in Turkey continuing to poison dogs, the fear the majority of Turkish people have of them and you see this regularly in Kalkan with mothers and their children giving dogs a very wide birth. I read about responsible dog owners exasperated by trying to rear their own dogs whilst feral animals roam round their property.
The recent poisoning incidents illustrate the unease that exists between the dogs and some locals.
The problem needs to be addressed more urgently in my view and as others have said this is an opportunity to try an alternative.
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I am glad you have taken time to look up things on the internet but you have still failed to understand the point I have made that there is no quick fix to this problem. The government has to enforce the laws and make all municipalities interpret the laws in the same way. So far this has never happened. If you remove all the dogs from KAlkan the streets WILL fill up with unneutered dogs from the surrounding areas.
Also, just another point _ Because we at KApsa know what these proposed 'parks will mean we will not aid the belediye in rounding up any animals. At the moment whenever there is an incident with a street dog in Kalkan the belediye calls us to deal with it, which we do. If the belediye guys cannot cope with handling the tame dogs we have on the streets now how are they going to be able to round up all the feral ones that will move down from the Akbel forests as soon as there are no longer any dogs here to keep them out?
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petition signed and shared with as many people I know as possible. Please let it make a difference as the proposals put forward for the new legislation have truly awful ramifications for animals in Turkey, owned or otherwise.
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At last government is proposing something that may stop people being intimidated and attacked by wild and uncontrolled "owned" dogs, a difference which is often unclear.
KAPSA has for some time been calling for more government involvement in the management of the dog problem but clearly it only wants this on its own terms.
Maybe KAPSA could spend more energy on supporting those Turkish and British dog owners who are responsible but who cannot take their dogs out for a walk on a lead because they get attacked by other dogs!
How many uncontrolled dogs does KAPSA think the streets of Kalkan can accommodate? There must be a maximum (and in my opinion we have exceeded it) that must be maintained by neutering but also by the removal or humane culling of uncontrolled dogs.
I am sick and tired of a noisy, well organised and financed group of sentimental Brits, many of whom don't have to live with the nuisance throughout the year, being considered to speak for us all.
If KAPSA really want government to take a greater role in the management of dogs, they need to appreciate that not everyone agrees with them and therefore any partnership with government cannot just be on their terms. KAPSA could play a constructive role ensuring the humane implementation of a new policy rather than trying to dictate the policy itself. I suspect it won't!
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Same as usual - it's like your not allowed to have an opinion unless it meets with KAPSAs. I support in part what they do but other options need to be explored too. KAPSA have their own part of the forum which promotes what their views are but which you are not allowed to respond to. Then when someone mentions otherwise in the general forum you get knocked back by all their members. Anyway, I hope the bill goes through. You don't see multitudes of street animals in any western european countries so maybe Turkey are trying to get their patch in control.
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If this proposed new bill means that animals will be left in the wilderness to starve to death than shame on anyone who supports it. It would be kinder to humanely put them to sleep than suffer such a fate. In any case it will never stop dogs being dumped and the whole cycle starting all over again.
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I've just spent a couple of weeks in a small Turkish town on the Aegean coast that has a population of 10,000. There are many Turkish tourists, very, very few Brits & nothing like KAPSA.
There are also very few stray dogs roaming the streets.
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Just put the record straight . .
KAPSA has for some time been calling for more government involvement in the management of the dog problem but clearly it only wants this on its own terms.
We have not been asking for more government involvement, we have asked that the Belediye does what it is supposed to according to the law 5199. If I had any criticism of the government up 'til now it would just be that they havent been strict enough with those who don't uphold the law (local authorities and individuals included)
I am sick and tired of a noisy, well organised and financed group of sentimental Brits, many of whom don't have to live with the nuisance throughout the year, being considered to speak for us all.
Who are you talking about??
If KAPSA really want government to take a greater role in the management of dogs, they need to appreciate that not everyone agrees with them and therefore any partnership with government cannot just be on their terms.
You keep seeming to insist that KAPSA wrote the law!! Actually we just adhere to it.
KAPSA could play a constructive role ensuring the humane implementation of a new policy rather than trying to dictate the policy itself.
This new policy is in no way humane so therefore it cannot be implemented humanely - And that is not just our opinion.
Anyway, enough from me now, have fun :-*
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well said saskia . it seems that there are less animal lovers than i thought that use this forum :(
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It may have nothing to do with being animal lovers or not. I love animals but don't always see the benefit of them roaming the streets. The new law may be an option, who knows. A lot of the comments about what will happen will just be conjecture and scaremongering.
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Please have a read at the various tabs on the link below. It should tell you all you need to know about the proposed new law. This method of controlling street animals didn't work over 100 years ago, why would it work now?
Please sign and share the petition.
http://occupyforanimals.wix.com/strays-of-turkey#!no-kill-turkey/cf9r
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Sally - I read your post with interest as I am always tryıng to expand my knowledge of the street animal situation in Turkey and overseas.
Did you find out how they control the number of street animals in the town you visited? Did they have a shelter? Were they operatıng a TNR programme in conjunction with a temporary shelter or where they using the shooting,poisoning and dumping method.Had they trained owners not to allow theır animals onto the streets?
Feel free to PM me if you have more info.Thanks.
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I am surprised that anything that happened 100 years ago could be relevant now.
Of course the dogs in Kalkan will not be starving because there are plenty of people who would want to feed them in their new environment. Ditto in a lot of other places.
Kalkan after the new rules will be a cleaner, safer and more successful resort so I hope the new regulations go through. The dogs will also be safer.
My wife will also allow me to buy a scooter since I won't get chased by the dogs, which is an experience you really don't want to have.
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Shame on you - I would far rather be greeted by a dog than that irritating 'put put' sound of an irritating scooter that echoes around the peace and tranquility of Kalkan. I found the whole potential fate of the poor dogs of Kalkan a despairing scenario. Well done Saskia, how you put up with the most irritating of responses of the 'few' on this forum is beyond me - your tireless work and fortitude is truly admirable.
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Irene - I second that and anyone who really thinks that this is the 'humane' answer to rid the streets of dogs and cats is sadly misguided. If you really don't like living or visiting a place where there are street animals then why not live or visit somewhere else? You have a choice the animals don't. I am fed up of KAPSA being put down for the good work they do. They are a voluntary organisation without any help from the authorities financial or otherwise who are only doing their best to feed and care for these unfortunate animals. If Kalkan became a place that turned a blind eye to the suffering of animals in order to keep the streets free of them I would not want to be a part of it. Sadly it would not be the same place I fell in love with.
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The problem is the dogs and maybe cats too would not be taken to RSPCA type centres (they dont exıst here) but to remote forest areas where nobody would be able to check on them or care for them.
There would be no need for education about neutering etc because why bother to neuter when the pups and kittens can be dumped on the street and someone will come along and dump them in the forest for you.The authorities are unable/unwilling to look after the animals they have already put in shelters.TNR has been proven to work in areas like Fethıye where the authories and volunteers work together to follow the current laws.There is no question these forests will become death camps for the animals and the streets wıll have a constant supply of animals to fill them because it certainly wont stop them being dumped on the streets.So it wont be quite as out of sight out of mind as some would like!!!
There are 1000s and 1000s of signatures and words of dismay on petitions all over the country and hıgh level protests in Turkey and overseas.Lets hope someone is listening.
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No shame on me, comparing scooters with dogs is clearly erroneous.
Firstly Scooters do not normally keep you awake at night, secondly taking scooters away from Kalkan will not help anyone or the economy. They are obviously the only transport the majority of locals can afford and furthermore the chasing from dogs is a serious accident waiting to happen.
Also my views on dogs is not based on my own circumstances, I love the place and its people and it remains a paradise, I am truly fortunate to be able to enjoy a good part of the year at my second home here. My motivation is achieving a secure financial future for the lovely people of Kalkan and to support those responsible dogs owners who want their pets to have a fulfilling life in this town without perpetual fear from attack.
Kalkan is selling an upmarket product and is in competition with local areas such as Kas and Fethiye where there are less feral dogs.
You appear to prefer the risk of damaging this town and its people by adopting policies which encourage more animals to be dumped here then allowing these feral dogs to roam free rather than be controlled in an area where they can be looked after properly (and yes if they are looked after on the streets then why on earth can't they can be looked after in a controlled area?) and paradoxically the dogs will be safer themselves. You may have noticed some recent incidents of poisonings which is the inhumane method of culling used in the past and illustrates the increasing tensions here between humans and feral dogs.
So in my view the "death camp" headline is misleading and a gross exaggeration and the implementation of the new proposals whilst Kapsa continue their good work with local education etc, is the best of both worlds creating safe and healthy animals with safe and happy humans.
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If you think the "death camp" heading is misleading please tell me what these remote "forest" places will be really like.
You have hit the nail on the head re Kas and Fethiye.Less street dogs,at the moment, in both but for different reasons.Fethiye for their TNR and temp shelter policy and Kas for a now overflowing dog "sanctuary".Fethiye will continue that way but Kas will have increasing numbers of dogs remaining on the streets.
Kalkan has tried hard to follow the Fethiye model which is the law and with the introduction of a temporary shelter in Kalkan the same results can be achieved over time.
If the new law comes into force we will still see new animals on the streets until they are rounded up and taken to these very remote "forest areas".This new law wont do anything to stop the dumping of animals.
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Kalkanview if you are really concerned about the negative effect the present dogs have on tourism İ suggest you read the comments people have written on the various petitions flying around about these changes. Hundreds if not thousands of people (tourists) are stating that they will not return to Turkey again if these changes go through. Also to think that there will be no more dogs on the streets is niave. There will be - only they will be different ones because until the government start to enforce these laws ( whichever law) villages will still dump their unwanted dogs and pups in touristic areas. İf the government had enforced the original 5199 in 2004 and made ever belediye baskani and Muhtar abide by it there would probably be less than 20 stray dogs altogether in the whole of Kalkan now!
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You have to admire Kalkanview for sticking with this one. In every debate on street animals it does appear that if you say anything anti then you are naive, dont know what your talking about, hate animals, missing the point, cant spell, your grammar is poor, etc etc.
Most people would have buckled under the negative feedback to their posting, but not Kalaknview it would appear?
In fact when you actually read what Kalknaview is saying they are none of the above. Kalkanview has expressed a balanced view on I guess what many others believe to be the situation in Kalkan but are too afraid to say because of the barrage of abuse that comes their way.
I guess in posting this comment in support of Kalaknview, i will be tagged as an animal hater. Truth is that is far from the case.
The thing is I have a sneeky suspicion that Kalaknview may indeed represent the silent majority of opinion on this issue.
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Sorry happy days but actually İ think it is the other way round. When we disagree with anyone we get accused of 'shooting them down in flames' or similar and now the latest 'barrage of abuse'
Actually İ try to remain as calm and polite at possible dispite the insults that are often flung at us by a few people on here. İf saying someone is 'rather niave' is a huge insult in your eyes then İ appologise.
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Thank you for your post happydays, I am also not a dog hater I am only wishing to express an opinion and yes it is disappointing when some members resort to rudeness.
If you want to gauge the views of the "silent majority" then I would suggest the "thank you" count on EK is a reasonable indicator and this implies far more people want (humane) action on the number of roaming dogs in Kalkan.
Also to quickly enhance the point about financial well being. A UK travel agent told me personally earlier this year that they were particularly disappointed with both the feedback from clients and their own experience relating to the number of roaming dogs found on their visit this year and was returning to the UK seriously reconsidering their recommendation of Kalkan, after years of successful business here.
Worryingly I heard a rumour yesterday about a recent potentially serious incident involving dogs, I will not mention further until it is verified but if other members have details including Kapsa then perhaps they can let us know.
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I don't tend to post on these threads as I know how messy they can get with all the muck slinging, but I cannot sit on my hands any longer regarding this issue and specifically the views expressed regarding the government's proposals. I am absolutely incredulous that anyone would seriously support the idea of rounding up all dogs, transporting them to a wilderness far, far away and dumping them there to fend for themselves just so Kalkan dwellers can create their own private utopia and preserve the all important impression of being 'upmarket'. Do you realise how crass and shallow you sound? We are speaking of living creatures here, sentient beings. There is nothing remotely 'humane' about the current proposals when the outcome will be to force these animals into a - no pun intended - 'dog eat dog' society where only the strongest survive. The animals will succumb to hunger, disease and injury but hey, out of sight out of mind so why should the villa owners and holidaymakers of Kalkan care? If you seriously believe that the intention is to create some sort of lovely, fluffy, doggy parkland with safe shelter, smiling wardens feeding the animals and vets on standby to deal with health needs then you are utterly, utterly deluded. Instead these animals will be left to die, and those that don't will, out of simple survival instinct, form wolf-like packs to terrorise each other and possibly neighbouring villages. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous. The current proposals fall so far short of a genuinely humane solution it's laughable. I am not saying that street animals should be left either to their own devices or to charitable organisations to care for but there should be smaller, publicly funded and more local solutions combined with education and enforcement. There is no overnight solution - or at least no humane one - but if there was a commitment to tackling the issues over the long term then it should be possible to achieve a satisfactory status quo for the residents, holidaymakers, property owners and businesspeople of Kalkan as well as for the animals.
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İ think the thank you count is a very nice way to show appreciation on ek but İ hardly think you can base statistics on it. There are various petitions out allowing people to show their dismay (to put it politely) over the governments plans. As far as İ know they have been signed by approximately 95,000 people. Hundreds of visitors to Kalkan heve also signed it. So İ'm not sure that 66 thank yous on EK really reprisent the silent majority. Sorry but it doesn't add up. İ speak to tourists EVERYDAY about the animals and Kapsa, İ don't go out on the street looking for them, they come to me, and İ can honestly say that 99% say they are so pleased the animals are looked after, and that that is one of the reasons they keep returning to Kalkan. Of course you don't need to believe this - its a free world. But another thing İ hear from almost every person that has been coming to Kalkan for ove 5 years is that there are far fewer cats and dogs on the streets than there used to be. Have a nice day everyone.
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firecat, I am merely expressing the views of a significant number of people including Turks who unlike you have spent a decent amount of time here and although I accept that Kapsa do of course have the best of intentions the methods for control have simply not worked.
It's unfortunate your tone directed at me is rather unpleasant it's as though I came up with the proposals myself!
It reminds me of several other members who have been in my position before and given up after being pilloried by the "dog mafia". This has clearly discouraged others to get involved and I am convinced public opinion is against the current rules.
I respect your passion for the animals and would appreciate the same from you and other members.
Your prognosis for the dogs in Kalkan is in my view an exaggeration although I accept none of us know the precise details.
Are you suggesting that Kapsa will be disbanding in the near future so will be unable to continue supporting the dogs if the proposals proceed?
Saskia, I am not just referring to my "thank you" count. If you look at the scores for the contributors on both sides there is a clear conclusion to be made.
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Returned from Kalkan late last night and at the risk of repeating myself yet again I've been visiting Kalkan for 16 years and shudder when I recall the plight of the dogs and cats back then. They were invariably malnourished, unkempt and in many cases suffering with some form of illness. Over the years I have been heartened to witness a huge change and now see healthier animals who have become part of the core of the town. I've seen many local people develop a huge affection for these animals and children grow to understand and respect their fellow occupants of the town.
I've come to know many people both Turkish and foreign who work tirelessly and with great compassion to ensure that animals and people can co-exist as harmoniously as possible, reduce suffering and cruelty and promote a culture of respect for all creatures.How they keep doing this in a background of sniping, rumour mongering and downright selfish self interest at times baffles me, although I am so grateful that they do.
I shudder when I hear comments about Kalkan being some kind of upmarket preserve for the privileged and frankly will lose no sleep if those kind of people choose not to return as there will be many many others who will continue to visit and enjoy the many delights of this amazing town. Frankly I have no wish to breathe the same air as people who would condone downright barbarism to any creature
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Ditto my previous post especially relating to unpleasantness, respect for other people's views and exaggeration.
I do not rent my villa so have no vested interest but there are a lot of people who have invested large sums in this town and they will be pleased that you wish Kalkan to become an animal sanctuary.
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Sorry but I don't recall making any such suggestion and have no idea why you would reach that conclusion.
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Sorry to say but the last few contributions just confirm very clearly the point i made in an earlier post. Speak up against animals in Kalkan and abuse will almost certainly come your way! Kalkanview - it is a great pity that your contribution has resulted in personal abuse. After all you are only expressing your opinion.
Perhaps time to call it a day?
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I am shocked at this response. Where did I personally abuse anyone? I made no reference to any individual whatsoever.
Maybe it is time to move on as is usual people will never agree. But be under no illusion I have absolutely not "personally abused" any individual
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Why don't we just ban all discussions on dogs.....it seems to only cause friction and do people really want to see the forum taken over by this....
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http://www.todayszaman.com/news-293845-thousands-march-against-amendment-to-animal-protection-law.html
Thousands of animal rights activists marched against a draft law on Sunday that would make changes to Turkey's Animal Protection Law No. 5199, seeking to introduce practices currently used in other countries such as collecting stray animals from the streets and euthanizing members of the “excess” population.
More than 10,000 people marched in İstanbul's Taksim neighborhood, and many others walked in 13 other cities, in protest of the planned changes
The thousands who gathered in Taksim, mostly in black outfits, on Sunday afternoon shared his message: Turks will not give up their stray animals to be isolated or euthanized. There were simultaneous protests in 13 other cities, although officials have mostly been silent on the matter. Photos of the crowded Taksim Square and demonstrations in other cities were posted on Twitter by participants, with two animal rights-related hashtags taking second and third place -- after the AK Party congress -- on Twitter's trending topics list for Turkey for much of the day.
I think we all need to remember that Kalkan is infact still part of Turkey. The marches today show how strongly Turkish people feel about the proposed changes to the animal rights bill 5199. They surely have more right to show their feelings than the silent majority
in Kalkan!!
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Thanks for the update Saskia, hopefully some good will come from the obvious depth of feeling of Turkish people
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Bang on Misty :-X :-X :-X
All these discussions do is HARM Kalkan :'( :'( :'(
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I think most folk will be pretty pleased that the Turkish government are proposing to upgrade bestiality from misdemeanour to crime................Perhaps there are other good things included in the proposed changes.
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Further to my recent posts when I mentioned a possible dog incident and was subsequently accused of scaremongering, I can confirm that a man was bitten in a restaurant on Kalamar road (I have deliberately chosen not to mention the restaurant name).
It was accidental but he unfortunately got between two fighting dogs.
I have also been informed that a women was knocked over by a group of roaming dogs whilst they were chasing a vehicle and had to be taken to hospital where she needed stitches.
As you will appreciate these incidents are usually kept as quiet as possible, I wonder how many more there are?
I appreciate EK letting this topic (which I started) continue this long, I would also like to thank the silent majority for supporting me in my attempts to balance the argument on EK.
This topic demonstrates why so few of the silent majority choose to get involved, proper dispassionate debate is impossible.
The politicians in Turkey are clearly acknowledging the existing regulations are not working and I hope they eventually agree new law which is both fair to the animals and succeeds in getting feral/owned dogs off the streets, which after all is their objective.
For the sake of beautiful Kalkan, I would support a ban on all posts relating to dogs on this forum as long as the Kapsa notice board was also excluded.
The forum can then concentrate on its main purpose i.e. what is great about Kalkan.
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............... and use the opportunity to vote on the KTLN poll.
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Just a question KV, but do you have anything to contribute other than your rather ungenerous views on KAPSA and street dogs? I only ask because of your (thus far) 18 posts 15 of them are on this single issue - and that's not just this thread but others. If this was a different forum elsewhere on the internet that might be considered the hallmark of a troll - not that I am suggesting you are of course, but as someone who apparently spends a large part of the year in Kalkan and has done so for many years I am somewhat surprised that you don't share more of your wisdom on other subjects. Someone with your experience and knowledge of Kalkan could be of valued assistance to many who post here asking for guidance and as you are so very concerned about Kalkan's image as a tourist resort don't you think that your energies might be better expended in enhancing Kalkan as a holiday destination rather than constantly griping about KAPSA?
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Whilst there would appear to clearly be a 'for' or against' opinion on this thread, I think it would only be fair to let everyone know which threads are posted by the kapsa members and which are not. It's in the vested interests of kapsa for this law not to go through. So who are the kapsa contributors???
thank you
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Cheesecake why would you say that it's in the vested interests of KAPSA for this law not to go through? Not quite sure what you mean by that?
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OK Kalkanview and the silent majority you win. I shall stop posting on here, Kapsa will however, continue to post on Kapsa notice board relevant articles and information about our work for the noisy few that do support what we do. I will just answer a few points others have made though, as it may be considered be rude not to do so
Cheesecake if this law went through we would have even more work to do as all the new dogs that came into Kalkan to replace the ones removed would need neutering! As for vested interest
not sure if I know or want to know what you are intimating so won’t even go there. In answer to your question though, I am a Kapsa member as is Amber but Kalkanview, Chicken George, dog patrol, Misty and Happy days are not.
Peterwalker you made a valid point, of course it is good that certain things are to be made criminal offences rather than just misdemeanours but many animal right groups here feel that this is a bit of a smoke screen, ie giving with one hand but taking away with the other. They also feel that there is a gross imbalance in the suggested amendments, for instance one may receive up to 1 years imprisonment for some foul deed done to an animal but on the other hand if one fails to hand over the family pet of 15 years within 3 months to a shelter because it resembles a staffie or might have some pitbull blood in its veins then one can be prosecuted and sent to jail.
Anyway, thats all from me - lets all continue to enjoy Kalkan x x x
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Firecat,
Unusually I am up at this late hour battening down the hatches whilst we have a nasty thunderstorm and severe winds in Kalkan.
Why can't you contribute to the debate without being personal?
You are however demonstrating very nicely why I have indeed had to create a new account so I can remain anonymous to the fanatics.
I am sure most reasonable people would confirm I have only given a personal opinion shared by many and which does not get expressed very often because of the very treatment I am experiencing.
I have acknowledged Kapsa members as well meaning of course they are, I am not inhuman but you (and others) seem unable to accept I cannot agree with their methods?
I could easily be offended by being associated with a troll but I have broad shoulders.
Saskia - I hope your property is OK if you are over here. My view is its black and white no dog commentary at all on both sides of the debate or it will not work. Yes lets all Enjoy Kalkan.
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You have to admire Kalkanview for sticking with this one. In every debate on street animals it does appear that if you say anything anti then you are naive, dont know what your talking about, hate animals, missing the point, cant spell, your grammar is poor, etc etc.
Most people would have buckled under the negative feedback to their posting, but not Kalaknview it would appear?
In fact when you actually read what Kalknaview is saying they are none of the above. Kalkanview has expressed a balanced view on I guess what many others believe to be the situation in Kalkan but are too afraid to say because of the barrage of abuse that comes their way.
I guess in posting this comment in support of Kalaknview, i will be tagged as an animal hater. Truth is that is far from the case.
The thing is I have a sneeky suspicion that Kalaknview may indeed represent the silent majority of opinion on this issue.
100% agree ^^^^^
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I know of 2 Kapsa members who have been postıng on thıs thread.Myself,Sandra Osborne.I have lived ın Kalkan,full tıme for over 7 years.I own a property ın town and am retired.Also Maggı Celik (Saskıa).She has lived in Turkey for over 18 years,been ın Kalkan for 10 and has a busıness here.We are a couple of the brits ınvolved wıth Kapsa but it is multi-racial wıth a large number of turks and other brits ınvolved too.
I write on the forum often,sometimes about animals but other thıngs too.I dont thınk I am ever rude or even show Kalkan ın a bad lıght (some wıll disagree).I have trıed very hard to learn as much as I can on the subject of street animal management from as many sources as I can and really believe, ıf we ın Kalkan had followed what has happened ın Fethiye, things would be very dıfferent here today.
People that know me never call me sentimental! I often have to make tough decisions about street anımals and dont shy away from doıng so.You will all have read my concerns for the anımals that are on the streets of Kalkan now and the animals that will be dumped or come down here ın the future.I dont apologise for those concerns but do apologise if anyone thinks I have voiced them rudely or too loudly.
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It’s a pity the people drafting this latest legislation did not read the following authoritative report on the control of Street animals., but then they may have done but I suspect balked at implementing it because it would cost them money.
I have posted below the link to the full report for those that want to get a better understanding of this issue.
Please read the following and I think very pertinent part of the report which if implemented along with the original neuter and return legislation would have gone along way to preventing the dumping of so many dogs in Kalkan over the last few years.
Registration and identification
The most effective way of clearly connecting an owner with his
or her animal is to use registration and identification together.
This should encourage a sense of responsibility in the owner
as the animal becomes identifiable as his/her own.
Registration/identification is an important tool for reuniting lost
animals with owners and can be a strong foundation for
enforcement of legislation (including abandonment legislation
and mandatory regular rabies vaccinations).
Several issues need to be considered when using this
component.
a. There are several methods of animal identification
available, and these can be used either separately or in
combination. They differ in three important ways:
permanence; visibility; and whether an animal has to be
anaesthetised when they are applied. Microchips, tattoos
and collars/tags are the three most common methods; the
most suitable will depend partly on local conditions and
partly on the reasons identification is being used.
b. If permanent identification of a large population is required,
the microchip currently offers the best option since the
number of permutations of digits in the code is sufficient to
identify all dogs, while human errors (transposing numbers
and incorrect reading of the numbers) are less likely as a
digital scanner is used to read the chip. Microchipping also
has the advantage of being a global system, so animals
moving from one area (or country) to another can continue
to be identified (see Case study 4). Before instituting a
microchip system, it is advisable to check that the chips
and readers used conform to ISO standards.
c. It is important that registration and identification information
is stored on a central database (or that separate databases
are linked in some way), which is accessible to all relevant
people (e.g. the veterinary profession, police, dog wardens
and municipal pounds). It may require the support of central
government to ensure a single unified system is used.
d. Mandatory registration and identification can help the
practical problems faced by shelters. When a dog brought
to a shelter is identified, it can be returned to its owner
without delay (avoiding welfare compromise for the dog and
reducing stress to the owner). If not identified, it is by
definition ‘unowned’ so the shelter can implement its
policies (whether rehoming or euthanasia) without the delay
of waiting for an owner to come forward. Both scenarios will
free up valuable kennel space, which will potentially
increase capacity.
CASE STUDY 4
An example of a registration and identification
system in Estonia
Tallinn city government is the first to adopt a mandatory
registration and identification system for dogs in Estonia.
The system was set up in August 2006 as a pilot
scheme, when the city of Tallinn commissioned a
commercial company to develop a database to record
and identify animals and their owners.
Municipal regulations stipulate that all dogs are to be
permanently identified by a microchip that has been
implanted by a vet. The owners and their animals’ details
are recorded onto a database, which can be accessed by
authorised personnel. The register was designed to be
universal, allowing the same system to be adopted
across Estonia. As well as identifying animals, the
system has been designed to record animal health
information such as rabies vaccinations. It is anticipated
that the system will eventually be used to issue rabies
vaccination recalls to owners when their dogs are due for
annual inoculations, as rabies vaccination is a mandatory
requirement in Estonia.
H U M A N E D O G P O P U L A T I O N M A N A G E M E N T G U I D A N C E : I C A M14
e. Registration fees can be charged (a ‘one off ’ fee or
payment each year) in order to provide funds for other
areas of the management programme. Although care needs
to be taken to balance potential income against
enforcement, if fees are too high owners may try to avoid
registration. Differential fee scales can be used as an
incentive for sterilisation, encouraging owners to keep only
a small number of animals and discouraging breeding of
dogs.
f. Licensing may be used when certain criteria have to be
fulfilled prior to dog ownership, for example when people
wish to breed dogs or own regulated dog breeds
(‘dangerous’ dogs). It could also be used to encourage
responsible ownership by requesting that people complete
a ‘certificate in dog ownership’ before they are granted a
licence to own a dog.
http://www.wsava.org/PDF/2008/Misc/AWC_ICAM_Coalition.pdf
Regards Buster
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Buster
First sensible thing I've seen on EK about the dog issue in Kalkan.
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Not surprisingly I agree with Kalkan view.
Those who oppose the policies of KAPSA are told they are harming Kalkan - our intention as responsible residents is to encourage effective measures to deal with a problem. It is not responsible to brush the problem under the carpet and would do Kalkan no favours. We have even been told we should live somewhere else if we don't like living with uncontrolled dogs on the streets - its as outrageous as saying that KAPSA supporters should live in kennels!
Still no one from KAPSA has answered the question I posed as to how many uncontolled dogs Kalkan can support? There must be a maximum number, but of course once you have acknowledged that you must do something to manage any number in excess of that.
Responsible dog ownership is not just a British thing - in Fethiye and Antalya dogs are walked on leads. Free roaming dogs may be a rural village thing, but Kalkan has outgrown that. The two recent incidents where people have been bitten or knocked over by dogs demonstrates this. What is KAPSA doing to identify these dangerous dogs and deal with them and, if they are owned, their owners. Busters helpful comments about a registration and licensing scheme would help but only if coupled with effective measures to remove dangerous or intimidating uncontrolled dogs.
I am still horrified by the lack of proportionality - there is an outcry from some about dog poionings (which I do not support) whilst those who raise legitimate concerns about uncontrolled dogs are villified. Where is the outcry about the 2 people who have recently required medical attention as a result of the activities of unconteolled dogs? How many more incidents do there have to be before KAPSA wakes up to the threat. Will it take a young child to get hurt before KAPSA faces up to the issue - I very much hope not.
If there is no proper management of uncontrolled dogs regrettably some people will use indiscrimate methods like poisoning. Let's deal with the problem in a more humane, targeted and organised way.
It's time for a change - I welcome the steps the Turkish government are proposing to more effectively manage uncontrolled dogs. They are inviting animal charities to play a role in supervising the implementation of the proposed animal parks - what is the problem?!?!
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So it looks like the government are going to amend the proposed law, despite the views of some people in Kalkan!!!... so many Turkish people realise that it is the wrong thing to do... so hopefully the anti-kapsa people can just live with it and try to help a little with the issues, rather than just knock it all the time... we are still catching un-neutered dumped animals and getting them neutered, and talking to the schools and villages... maybe you can get involved too and be a bit pro-active to help things out... much better use of your energy... Thanks in advance.
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http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/govt-steps-back-in-bid-to-amend-animal-rights-law.aspx?pageID=238&nID=31542&NewsCatID=338
Gov’t steps back in bid to amend animal rights law
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Yessss!!! most Turkish people and tourists will be very happy....
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Interesting question posed - What is Kapsa doing about dangerous dogs in Kalkan? When we are informed by a member of the public or the belidye about a problem dog we have always acted straight away.If its street dog we are able to remove it from the streets if its an owned dogs the situation can be difficult but we went to the mayor and made an official complaint when a child was bitten by an owned dog.We then went with the belidye to remove the dog,ensure it was kept for 10 days outside of Kalkan and then examined by a vet.The dog never returned to Kalkan.
The way forward is for volunteers and the local authorities to work together.Fethiye have proved that the programmes recommended by so many worldwide organisations work.Let us hope that the u turn by the government will be followed up by legislation that is humane and workable and has to be implemented by everyone.The birth of unwanted pups must be stopped.They have listened to the 1000s and 1000s of protestors but that cant be the end of it!
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KAPSA are well aware of some of the problem dogs roaming the streets intimidating people BUT the dogs are still there being fed by them. Yes KAPSA have dealt with some dogs AFTER a serious incident BUT what are they doing about known aggressive dogs BEFORE a serious incident? Waiting for one? Or just hoping it won't happen? Uncontrolled dogs need more pro-active management and if KAPSA won't do it, the Belediye should and the law should enable it to do so. It's too late after a child has been mauled!
I am happy that the Turkish Government is reviewing its proposals - maybe it should consider incorporating registration and licensing of dogs in any revised proposals. I believe the RSPCA supports dog licensing in the UK. I certainly hope the Turkish Government does not ignore the millions of Turkish people who are aware of the problem, think Brits are more concerned about animals than people and who did not demonstrate against the Government's proposals.
KAPSA says it want to educate people about dog ownership. What is it doing to support those responsible dog owners who are scared to take their dogs for a walk on a lead because they get attacked by uncontrolled dogs? If responsible dog ownership is to be encouraged, first it has to be possible to take your dog out for a walk on a lead without having to carry a stick to fend off uncontrolled dogs. Maybe encouraging the conditions where responsible dog owners can take their dogs out for a walk on a lead, without fear, should be a campaigning priority for KAPSA!
I would like a dog - one of the reasons I don't own one is I think it is a 24 hour 364 days a year resonsibility. The other reason is that it is almost impossible in Kalkan to take it out for a leisurely walk on a lead - and I certainly wouldn't want it going out by itself being a nuisance. KAPSA should be helping potential dog owners like me but it isn't.
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Dog Control - You live ın Kalkan and have lots of ideas for campaigns etc - come and help! I am fed up wıth this them and us attitude and I am sure everyone else is too.Lets try and work together,withın the law to improve the street animal management ın Kalkan.
Please PM me if you would like to do something and anyone else too.
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Yessss!!! most Turkish people and tourists will be very happy....
I think the KTLN poll and the thankyou counts of those who would like to consider alternatives would suggest otherwise. People who state that tourists won't come if the street animals are removed are deluded. Probably 99% of tourists would have no idea there is even a debate about street animals. I doubt the Governments step back from the proposals means it's all over. I'm sure they see the need that something needs to be done.
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Amber I appreciate your sincerity but your invitation to join with KAPSA is a bit like asking a Tory to volunteer for the Labour Party.
A number of us have fundamental differences with KAPSA.
We believe there are too many uncontrolled dogs on the streets of Kalkan. We support the vacination and neutering programme but believe this is grossly inadequate by itself.
We believe uncontrolled dogs are at best a nuisance and at worst dangerous. We believe KAPSA's response to dangerous dogs is too little, too late.
We believe that an indiscriminate and potentially ever expanding feeding programme aids the problem.
We want to encourage responsible dog ownership but not uncontrolled dogs roaming the streets, sometimes terrorising people.
We believe dangerous dogs should be removed from public areas and either kept under control by responsible owners or be put down. We do not support feeding them, often near someone else's home.
You ask us to join with KAPSA but this is exclusively on KAPSA's terms. KAPSA has made no offer to review its policies in response to our concerns.
Until such time, the answer is "No thanks!"
In the meantime I hope people will find a better place to put their efforts.
I will be supporting the fundraising dinner at Fenner tomorrow night to support a local 8 year old child with leukaemia - in my opinion a far more worthy cause.
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Nothing to stop people supporting both causes as I and no doubt many many others have done. I am sorry to miss the function at Fenner but for anyone interested there are other ways to donate including via KTLN.
Please, this is not about people v animals. It is entirely possible to support both
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I agree with chickengeorge and infact the Turkish govt will be coming back with revised proposals so as they say it ain't over until the fat lady sings!
dogcontrol covers the main issues nice and concisely. You have to say there are plenty of serious injustices in the world Syria just to mention one and in the great spectrum of life the kalkan dogs are hardly top of the list. I remember that when the dogs were poisoned which was awful, there was lots of reaction some of it rather hysterical with "children crying", but when the old almond seller was knocked off his scooter by a dog ...........nothing.
So maybe some are losing perspective particularly with language such as "Death Camp" et al?
The latest KTLN story on the very sad events with the Dalaman to Kalkan transfer caused by a single dog crossing the road further illustrates why stray dogs need controlling. How can this situation be allowed to continue any longer by the authority's?
p.s. I would like to remind any reader of this post that Kalkan continues to be an absolute paradise - really!
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Kalkanview. You started this thread and I think your last post is a fitting end, particularly the endorsement that Kalkan is paradise.
We have all had our say on this issue and now time to move on to other more deserving issues and what better than the one mentioned by Dog Control, the fundraiser for the daughter of the head chef in Fenner. If ever there was a worthy cause then this is it.
If you are not going tomorrow, then dig deep and donate some money via the link on KTLN.
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Dog Control I wasn’t inviting you to become a Kapsa member I was just suggesting that we all might benefit from a friendly exchange of ideas.
I was interested to read your list of fundamental differences
because it seems we are not so different after all! But it would appear that (and please don’t take this as an insult) you don’t know very much about Kapsa and our objectives. We have leaflets in quite a few businesses in the town perhaps you’d like to have a look.
We believe there are too many uncontrolled dogs on the streets of Kalkan. We support the vacination and neutering programme but believe this is grossly inadequate by itself.
Kapsa totally agrees with you on this which is why we have been putting pressure on the Mayor to provide a temporary shelter among other things. We have on many occasions petitioned the Belediye and even the Governor of Kaş to speak to the Muhtars from surrounding areas to insist that all village dogs be brought to us to be neutered and returned instead of them breeding freely the result of which is their offspring being dumped in Kalkan or elsewhere. We find homes for dogs where ever possible and this year we have 9 dogs going to new homes in the UK.
We believe uncontrolled dogs are at best a nuisance and at worst dangerous. We believe KAPSA's response to dangerous dogs is too little, too late. We believe dangerous dogs should be removed from public areas and either kept under control by responsible owners or be put down.
Here I would like to point out that we are all volunteers and it is not our ‘job’ to deal with dangerous dogs, it is in fact the responsibility of the belediye. But the reality of the situation is that we are the only people who do anything at all. We have removed a number of dogs that were considered dangerous or were unsuitable for life on the streets of Kalkan.
We believe that an indiscriminate and potentially ever expanding feeding programme aids the problem.
Here we do have to disagree. Our feeding programme is far from indiscriminate. It does stop the dogs flocking to the town in the winter when all the villas empty and the hotels close down. Also hungry dogs are more likely to be aggressive. It also helps us with neutering as people are able to identify unneutered animals easily. It is also supported by a great many Turkish people. Last winter we had 70 winter feeding volunteers of which more than two thirds were Turkish. We encourage our feeders and tourists (if they ask) to feed animals away from villas etc where cats or dogs may not be welcome by others.
We want to encourage responsible dog ownership but not uncontrolled dogs roaming the streets, sometimes terrorising people.
We have always tried to encourage responsible dog ownership. According to the current law ALL owned dogs should be registered with the belediye. This doesn’t happen. We keep a registry of all street dogs and have asked the Belediye to insist that all owners should register their dogs with us as the belediye has no interest in doing this themselves. Again, this hasn’t happened
You ask us to join with KAPSA but this is exclusively on KAPSA's terms. KAPSA has made no offer to review its policies in response to our concerns.
Kapsa doesn’t have terms we just try to act within the current laws
I hope this has helped to clear up some grey areas.
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Thank you to all the people in Kalkan, including Kapsa members, ( Sandra Osborne in particular - Amber) who gave so generously in terms of time and money to the fundraiser for Nisa Kirca.
I organised the event, with help from many people here. I am a Kapsa member.
We raised over 17,000 Turkish lira.
And finally Kalkanview, please read the posts on here before you accuse people of doing nothing. The 'old almond seller' who is called Kenan and is 57, was not knocked off his bike by a dog. This fact has now been reported on here by me at least three times but some people still want to make up a story that fits their agenda when the facts don't.
And many Kapsa members, including me, responded to Kenans' hour of need.
In my experience of fundraising over many years in many countries, compassion and empathy, which prompts people to give to any number of good causes is rarely restricted to only one aspect of life. Thus animal lovers are just as likely as anybody else to support a whole variety of causes. To suggest that animal lovers put the welfare of animals above that of people or any other cause is simply offensive.
Lantana
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I wasn't going to post on here again but I just couldn't help myself. That is just so wonderful. I am so pleased that on occassions like this everyone can pull together. Thanks Lantana et al, lets hope the money raised can go along way to making Nisa well again. Thank you to EVERYONE that supported this.
Lantana I think you should write about this on General Discussion (if you haven't already) as not everyone may read this thread. I have heard people say it was one of the best evenings they'd ever spent in Kalkan and all for a good cause.