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Author Topic: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199  (Read 50120 times)

Offline itstime

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2012, 07:21:43 PM »
Thanks for the update Saskia, hopefully some good will come from the obvious depth of feeling of Turkish people

Offline onelove

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2012, 07:32:24 AM »
Bang on Misty  :-X :-X :-X

All these discussions do is HARM Kalkan  :'( :'( :'(



Latest weather report...... Large outbreaks of Efes followed by intermitent spells of vodka and tonic ;-))
www.kalamardream.com

Offline pw

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2012, 06:34:08 PM »
I think most folk will be pretty pleased that the Turkish government are proposing to upgrade bestiality from  misdemeanour to crime................Perhaps there are other good things included in the proposed changes.

re-branded & abbreviated

Offline kalkanview

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2012, 08:05:23 PM »
Further to my recent posts when I mentioned a possible dog incident and was subsequently accused of scaremongering, I can confirm that a man was bitten in a restaurant on Kalamar road (I have deliberately chosen not to mention the restaurant name). 
It was accidental but he unfortunately got between two fighting dogs.

I have also been informed that a women was knocked over by a group of roaming dogs whilst they were chasing a vehicle and had to be taken to hospital where she needed stitches. 

As you will appreciate these incidents are usually kept as quiet as possible, I wonder how many more there are?

I appreciate EK letting this topic (which I started) continue this long, I would also like to thank the silent majority for supporting me in my attempts to balance the argument on EK.

This topic demonstrates why so few of the silent majority choose to get involved, proper dispassionate debate is impossible.   

The politicians in Turkey are clearly acknowledging the existing regulations are not working and I hope they eventually agree new law which is both fair to the animals and succeeds in getting feral/owned dogs off the streets, which after all is their objective.

For the sake of beautiful Kalkan, I would support a ban on all posts relating to dogs on this forum as long as the Kapsa notice board was also excluded.

The forum can then concentrate on its main purpose i.e. what is great about Kalkan.

Offline kalkanview

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2012, 09:00:22 PM »
............... and use the opportunity to vote on the KTLN poll.

Offline Firecat

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2012, 09:08:44 PM »
Just a question KV, but do you have anything to contribute other than your rather ungenerous views on KAPSA and street dogs? I only ask because of your (thus far) 18 posts 15 of them are on this single issue - and that's not just this thread but others. If this was a different forum elsewhere on the internet that might be considered the hallmark of a troll - not that I am suggesting you are of course, but as someone who apparently spends a large part of the year in Kalkan and has done so for many years I am somewhat surprised that you don't share more of your wisdom on other subjects. Someone with your experience and knowledge of Kalkan could be of valued assistance to many who post here asking for guidance and as you are so very concerned about Kalkan's image as a tourist resort don't you think that your energies might be better expended in enhancing Kalkan as a holiday destination rather than constantly griping about KAPSA?
Cat on a hot tin roof

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2012, 09:27:34 PM »
Whilst there would appear to clearly be a 'for' or against' opinion on this thread, I think it would only be fair to let everyone know which threads are posted by the kapsa members and which are not. It's in the vested interests of kapsa for this law not to go through. So who are the kapsa contributors???
thank you

Offline kalkanbelle

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2012, 09:33:01 PM »
Cheesecake why would you say that it's in the vested interests of KAPSA for this law not to go through? Not quite sure what you mean by that?

Offline saskia

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2012, 09:51:53 PM »
OK Kalkanview and the silent majority you win. I shall stop posting on here, Kapsa will however, continue to post on Kapsa notice board relevant articles and information about our work for the noisy few that do support what we do. I will just answer a few points others have made though, as it may be considered be rude not to do so

Cheesecake if this law went through we would have even more work to do as all the new dogs that came into Kalkan to replace the ones removed would need neutering! As for
Quote
vested interest
not sure if I know or want to know what you are intimating so won’t even go there. In answer to your question though, I am a Kapsa member as is Amber but Kalkanview, Chicken George, dog patrol, Misty and Happy days are not.

Peterwalker you made a valid point, of course it is good that certain things are to be made criminal offences rather than just misdemeanours but many animal right groups here feel that this is a bit of a smoke screen, ie giving with one hand but taking away with the other. They also feel that there is a gross imbalance in the suggested amendments, for instance one may receive up to 1 years imprisonment for some foul deed done to an animal but on the other hand if one fails to hand over the family pet of 15 years within 3 months to a shelter because it resembles a staffie or might have some pitbull blood in its veins then one can be prosecuted and sent to jail. 
Anyway, thats all from me - lets all continue to enjoy Kalkan x x x
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 10:17:07 PM by saskia »
www.kapsa.co.uk official website also see Friends of Kapsa on facebook http://www.facebook.com/

Offline kalkanview

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2012, 11:16:28 PM »
Firecat,
Unusually I am up at this late hour battening down the hatches whilst we have a nasty thunderstorm and severe winds in Kalkan.

Why can't you contribute to the debate without being personal?

You are however demonstrating very nicely why I have indeed had to create a new account so I can remain anonymous to the fanatics.

I am sure most reasonable people would confirm I have only given a personal opinion shared by many and which does not get expressed very often because of the very treatment I am experiencing.

I have acknowledged Kapsa members as well meaning of course they are, I am not inhuman but you (and others) seem unable to accept I cannot agree with their methods?

I could easily be offended by being associated with a troll but I have broad shoulders. 

Saskia - I hope your property is OK if you are over here.  My view is its black and white no dog commentary at all on both sides of the debate or it will not work.  Yes lets all Enjoy Kalkan. 

Offline sausagedog

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2012, 07:47:44 AM »
You have to admire Kalkanview for sticking with this one. In every debate on street animals it does appear that if you say anything anti then you are naive, dont know what your talking about, hate animals, missing the point, cant spell, your grammar is poor, etc etc.

Most people would have buckled under the negative feedback to their posting, but not Kalaknview it would appear?

In fact when you actually read what Kalknaview is saying they are none of the above. Kalkanview has expressed a balanced view on I guess what many others believe to be the situation in Kalkan but are too afraid to say because of the barrage of  abuse that comes their way.

I guess in posting this comment in support of Kalaknview, i will be tagged as an animal hater. Truth is that is far from the case.

The thing is I have a sneeky suspicion that Kalaknview may indeed represent the silent majority of opinion on this issue.

100% agree ^^^^^

Offline amber

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2012, 08:51:46 AM »
I know of 2 Kapsa members who have been postıng on thıs thread.Myself,Sandra Osborne.I have lived ın Kalkan,full tıme for over 7 years.I own a property ın town and am retired.Also Maggı Celik (Saskıa).She has lived in Turkey for over 18 years,been ın Kalkan for 10 and has a busıness here.We are a couple of the brits ınvolved wıth Kapsa but it is multi-racial wıth a large number of turks and other brits ınvolved too.

I write on the forum often,sometimes about animals but other thıngs too.I dont thınk I am ever rude or even show Kalkan ın a bad lıght (some wıll disagree).I have trıed very hard to learn as much as I can on the subject of street animal management from as many sources as I can and really believe, ıf we ın Kalkan had followed what has happened ın Fethiye, things would be very dıfferent here today.

People that know me never call me sentimental! I often have to make tough decisions about street anımals and dont shy away from doıng so.You will all have read my concerns for the anımals that are on the streets of Kalkan now and the animals that will be dumped or come down here ın the future.I dont apologise for those concerns but do apologise if anyone thinks I have voiced them rudely or too loudly.


Offline Buster

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2012, 12:44:43 PM »
It’s a pity the people drafting this latest legislation did not  read the following authoritative report on the control of Street animals., but then they may have done but I suspect balked at implementing it because it would cost them money.

I have posted below the link to the full report for those that want to get a better understanding of this issue.

Please read the following and I think very pertinent part of the report which if implemented along with the original neuter and return legislation would have gone along way to preventing the dumping of so many dogs in Kalkan over the last few years.

Registration and identification
The most effective way of clearly connecting an owner with his
or her animal is to use registration and identification together.
This should encourage a sense of responsibility in the owner
as the animal becomes identifiable as his/her own.
Registration/identification is an important tool for reuniting lost
animals with owners and can be a strong foundation for
enforcement of legislation (including abandonment legislation
and mandatory regular rabies vaccinations).
Several issues need to be considered when using this
component.
a. There are several methods of animal identification
available, and these can be used either separately or in
combination. They differ in three important ways:
permanence; visibility; and whether an animal has to be
anaesthetised when they are applied. Microchips, tattoos
and collars/tags are the three most common methods; the
most suitable will depend partly on local conditions and
partly on  the reasons identification is being used.
b. If permanent identification of a large population is required,
the microchip currently offers the best option since the
number of permutations of digits in the code is sufficient to
identify all dogs, while human errors (transposing numbers
and incorrect reading of the numbers) are less likely as a
digital scanner is used to read the chip. Microchipping also
has the advantage of being a global system, so animals
moving from one area (or country) to another can continue
to be identified (see Case study 4). Before instituting a
microchip system, it is advisable to check that the chips
and readers used conform to ISO standards.
c. It is important that registration and identification information
is stored on a central database (or that separate databases
are linked in some way), which is accessible to all relevant
people (e.g. the veterinary profession, police, dog wardens
and municipal pounds). It may require the support of central
government to ensure a single unified system is used.
d. Mandatory registration and identification can help the
practical problems faced by shelters. When a dog brought
to a shelter is identified, it can be returned to its owner
without delay (avoiding welfare compromise for the dog and
reducing stress to the owner). If not identified, it is by
definition ‘unowned’ so the shelter can implement its
policies (whether rehoming or euthanasia) without the delay
of waiting for an owner to come forward. Both scenarios will
free up valuable kennel space, which will potentially
increase capacity.
CASE STUDY 4
An example of a registration and identification
system in Estonia
Tallinn city government is the first to adopt a mandatory
registration and identification system for dogs in Estonia.
The system was set up in August 2006 as a pilot
scheme, when the city of Tallinn commissioned a
commercial company to develop a database to record
and identify animals and their owners.
Municipal regulations stipulate that all dogs are to be
permanently identified by a microchip that has been
implanted by a vet. The owners and their animals’ details
are recorded onto a database, which can be accessed by
authorised personnel. The register was designed to be
universal, allowing the same system to be adopted
across Estonia. As well as identifying animals, the
system has been designed to record animal health
information such as rabies vaccinations. It is anticipated
that the system will eventually be used to issue rabies
vaccination recalls to owners when their dogs are due for
annual inoculations, as rabies vaccination is a mandatory
requirement in Estonia.
H U M A N E D O G P O P U L A T I O N M A N A G E M E N T G U I D A N C E : I C A M14
e. Registration fees can be charged (a ‘one off ’ fee or
payment each year) in order to provide funds for other
areas of the management programme. Although care needs
to be taken to balance potential income against
enforcement, if fees are too high owners may try to avoid
registration. Differential fee scales can be used as an
incentive for sterilisation, encouraging owners to keep only
a small number of animals and discouraging breeding of
dogs.
f. Licensing may be used when certain criteria have to be
fulfilled prior to dog ownership, for example when people
wish to breed dogs or own regulated dog breeds
(‘dangerous’ dogs). It could also be used to encourage
responsible ownership by requesting that people complete
a ‘certificate in dog ownership’ before they are granted a
licence to own a dog.

http://www.wsava.org/PDF/2008/Misc/AWC_ICAM_Coalition.pdf

Regards   Buster
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 12:57:37 PM by Buster »
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Pet Nothing, Persecute Nothing.

Offline Denners

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2012, 01:58:41 PM »
Buster
First sensible thing I've seen on EK about the dog issue in Kalkan.

Offline Dog control

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2012, 04:32:59 PM »
Not surprisingly I agree with Kalkan view.

Those who oppose the policies of KAPSA are told they are harming Kalkan - our intention as responsible residents is to encourage effective measures to deal with a problem. It is not responsible to brush the problem under the carpet and would do Kalkan no favours. We have even been told we should live somewhere else if we don't like living with uncontrolled dogs on the streets - its as outrageous as saying that KAPSA supporters should live in kennels!

Still no one from KAPSA has answered the question I posed as to how many uncontolled dogs Kalkan can support? There must be a maximum number, but of course once you have acknowledged that you must do something to manage any number in excess of that.

Responsible dog ownership is not just a British thing - in Fethiye and Antalya dogs are walked on leads. Free roaming dogs may be a rural village thing, but Kalkan has outgrown that. The two recent incidents where people have been bitten or knocked over by dogs demonstrates this. What is KAPSA doing to identify these dangerous dogs and deal with them and, if they are owned, their owners. Busters helpful comments about a registration and licensing scheme would help but only if coupled with effective measures to remove dangerous or intimidating uncontrolled dogs.

I am still horrified by the lack of proportionality - there is an outcry from some about dog poionings (which I do not support) whilst those who raise legitimate concerns about uncontrolled dogs are villified. Where is the outcry about the 2 people who have recently required medical attention as a result of the activities of unconteolled dogs? How many more incidents do there have to be before KAPSA wakes up to the threat. Will it take a young child to get hurt before KAPSA faces up to the issue - I very much hope not.

If there is no proper management of uncontrolled dogs regrettably some people will use indiscrimate methods like poisoning. Let's deal with the problem in a more humane, targeted and organised way.

It's time for a change - I welcome the steps the Turkish government are proposing to more effectively manage uncontrolled dogs. They are inviting animal charities to play a role in supervising the implementation of the proposed animal parks - what is the problem?!?!

Offline kalkankediler

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So it looks like the government are going to amend the proposed law, despite the views of some people in Kalkan!!!... so many Turkish people realise that it is the wrong thing to do... so hopefully the anti-kapsa people can just live with it and try to help a little with the issues, rather than just knock it all the time... we are still catching un-neutered dumped animals and getting them neutered, and talking to the schools and villages... maybe you can get involved too and be a bit pro-active to help things out... much better use of your energy... Thanks in advance.

Offline KAPSA Kalkan

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    • KAPSA - Kalkan association for the protection of street animals
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Visit our website www.kapsaonline.com/
or join us on Facebook at Friends of Kapsa
https://www.facebook.com/groups/friendsofkapsa/

Offline kalkankediler

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Yessss!!! most Turkish people and tourists will be very happy....

Offline amber

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2012, 09:00:14 PM »
Interesting question posed - What is Kapsa doing about dangerous dogs in Kalkan? When we are informed by a member of the public or the belidye about a problem dog we have always acted straight away.If its street dog we are able to remove it from the streets if its an owned dogs the situation can be difficult but we went to the mayor and made an official complaint when a child was bitten by an owned dog.We then went with the belidye to remove the dog,ensure it was kept for 10 days outside of Kalkan and then examined by a vet.The dog never returned to Kalkan.

The way forward is for volunteers and the local authorities to work together.Fethiye have proved that the programmes recommended by so many worldwide organisations work.Let us hope that the u turn by the government will be followed up by legislation that is humane and workable and has to be implemented by everyone.The birth of unwanted pups must be stopped.They have listened to the 1000s and 1000s of protestors but that cant be the end of it!

Offline Dog control

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2012, 10:36:15 PM »
KAPSA are well aware of some of the problem dogs roaming the streets intimidating people BUT the dogs are still there being fed by them. Yes KAPSA have dealt with some dogs AFTER a serious incident BUT what are they doing about known aggressive dogs BEFORE a serious incident? Waiting for one? Or just hoping it won't happen? Uncontrolled dogs need more pro-active management and if KAPSA won't do it, the Belediye should and the law should enable it to do so. It's too late after a child has been mauled!

I am happy that the Turkish Government is reviewing its proposals - maybe it should consider incorporating registration and licensing of dogs in any revised proposals. I believe the RSPCA supports dog licensing in the UK. I certainly hope the Turkish Government does not ignore the millions of Turkish people who are aware of the problem, think Brits are more concerned about animals than people and who did not demonstrate against the Government's proposals.

KAPSA says it want to educate people about dog ownership. What is it doing to support those responsible dog owners who are scared to take their dogs for a walk on a lead because they get attacked by uncontrolled dogs? If responsible dog ownership is to be encouraged, first it has to be possible to take your dog out for a walk on a lead without having to carry a stick to fend off uncontrolled dogs. Maybe encouraging the conditions where responsible dog owners can take their dogs out for a walk on a lead, without fear, should be a campaigning priority for KAPSA!

I would like a dog - one of the reasons I don't own one is I think it is a 24 hour 364 days a year resonsibility. The other reason is that it is almost impossible in Kalkan to take it out for a leisurely walk on a lead  - and I certainly wouldn't want it going out by itself being a nuisance. KAPSA should be helping potential dog owners like me but it isn't.


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