Non-indigenous wildlife of Kalkan

[kalkankediler]

Big respect to Thor... and let's hope the rest will be able to see logic....

[itstime]

 

Quote from Thor: "But these people whose opinions you value so highly...".

You should not make assumptions.  I did not say I valued their opinions in any shape or form.  I simply said that people have a right to express an opinion, without an avalanche of vitriol - even if it is as clever and witty as your contribution.

I merely pointed out that being offensive does not take us forward one centimetre, and I stand by that.

The subject of street animals - I guess dogs in particular, is an emotive one.  These threads tend to generate more heat than light.  Nothing changes.

Maybe nothing changes because some people simply won't listen to what is being said and stalwartly (is that even a word ) refuse to accept the laws and culture of the land

[Kalkan regular]

I thought it was funny, well written and tongue in cheek. I read it with the Attenborough whisper. It was nice to have something light after all the intense dog stuff and I didn't read it as dismissing the 'dog issue', neither did I feel it was insulting to all Kalkan visitors and residents (although I do recognise some of the traits he describes in people I have seen there ......not in me of course!) as it was a parody of life.

The dog problem isn't confined to Kalkan. On the Turkish Living forum there is currently a thread on dogs and Izmir and there have been loads of others regarding other Turkish towns. Not one of our guests in the last 2 years have complained about the dogs and a few were a little worried before they arrived due to the postings on here and thought they were going to be in mortal danger. People may have differing views but KASPA are at least trying to ameliorate the problem.

[Lantana]

I think KTLN protests too much.  Thor's post was a well-crafted piece of satire as KTLN himself has said. 

Satire has a long history and tradition in British culture. It's purpose is to highlight the absurd when reasoned debate has failed. Much of what has been written in the various posts about the street animals in Kalkan is absurd beyond belief because the statements, re-iterated over and over again,  had no substance, no factual basis and took the debate nowhere.  We do not have a debate, we have a dialogue of the deaf.

If anything was asking to be satirised it is this.

KTLN deplores this use of satire but has constructed his own response around irony.  So we can have ironical comments but not satirical ones?  Is that not just a little, to use my current favourite word yet again, disingenuos?  Should we now consider KTLN's use of irony insulting to anyone who has failed to grasp that irony is being employed?.  Of course not but we are asked to accept that it is insulting to use satire.

In many non-democratic regimes, satire is actually outlawed because of its power to poke fun, to challenge and to bring about change.

Just what has Thor demolished ? Why is this piece offensive? It is only offensive if you think it is you who is the target of the satire and you could only think that if you thought you recognised aspects of your own behaviour being described. This satire was all about observed behaviour it was not about erudition or educational achievement.

This is not and never has been a constructive debate with two parties willing to listen, engage in dialogue and agree a consensus in which we can move forward.

 So why not highlight the absurdity of  much of what has been said on this subject.   If we cannot recognise the absurd in ourselves and others, what awfully high opinions we must have of our own infallibility and if that is the case, we do deserve to be taken down a peg or too.

Lantana

[itstime]

 

One of his most quoted phrases is I believe  "there are none so deaf as those that won't hear, and none so blind as those that won't see"

Not sure if this is what Thor is referring to but certainly seems apt.
I make no apologies for being amused by his first post and extremely saddened by the latest as he has said far more eloquently than I ever could exactly what I believe to be true. Sad times indeed when the love of profit and self ignores completely the plight of fellow inhabitants of this planet


OOPS got it wrong ah well I stand corrected  that quote is by Matthew Henry. Still it does kind of fit

[kevincat99]

For those who are not sure what all this is about

irony is ................a situation in which something which was intended to have a particular result has the opposite or a very different result

and satire is .......a way of criticizing people or ideas in a humorous way, or a piece of writing or play which uses this style

so now we all know..you pays your money and takes your pick

[Pete]

Just caught up with the whole of this posting.
Wow! I think Thor must be the second coming of Charles Dickens, 200 years to the day! Or he was given a new dictionary for christmas and swallowed it along with the pudding.
A wondeful use of the english language.

[hel66]

I read Thor's post a couple of times just to make sure I didn't miss something. I have to assume Thor has been to Kalkan on holiday at some time or another and met some ex-pats who he thought were egotistical, or he sees everyone who doesn't support kapsa as egotistical, if he's an expat then why does he criticise himself, if he's not then how he does know what expats do or think or speak about?
' Its nest,  known as a "villa" is a shabby affair built of concrete, which it spreads round as much as possible, covering any plantlife or soil it may spot in its environment. It often builds strange inexplicable deep concrete holes, using vast amounts of scarce available supplies of water to fill them, yet inexplicably disdaining the sea.'
 I don't think the villas here are shabby and it's nice to have a pool in such a hot climate, he probably spends more on his central heating bill keeping the chill off at home, than an expat spends on maintaining a pool for a year
 As for 'retired people gathering together and squawking about local issues'  something you'd find in any community anywhere. The BBC actively encourage it!!
  I wonder from which place he's from in the UK, I'd like to visit it and then go the website forum that's up and running for that particular place, and write a critcal piece of prose about it.
'Went to.................(insert Thor's town)........... it was s**t and everyone squawked about the weather, squawked about their pay, the prices the traffic,etc, etc etc      O yeh and then squawked on about the UK's policy of dealing with street animals....' 'When are they going to introduce a policy of neuter and return, my God, it's so inhumane, all those poor unwanted dogs being put into dog's  homes  and then humanely put to sleep.... IT'S A DISGRACE...why can't we be like Turkey and put them back on the streets to roam around. and then get a bunch of people to raise money to fill their cars with petrol and drive around dumping handfuls of food outside retired people's houses so the dogs can all gather around and fight over it and bark away all night.
I wonder exactly, (and perhaps he'll afford us the time out of his busy, prose critique and character generalisation of peoples and places he's visited) what he would do if a bunch of dogs was to gather outside his house and start barking and fighting, and then a 'tireless' and hard working volunteer were to drive by each day or night and feed them......   Phone the police perhaps,phone the coucil? No of course not, he'd give the volunteer some money,'Hey there tireless volunteer' he'd say 'have this handful of cash to go and buy some more food for the dogs...  and ignore the neighbours 'squawking' at you from their windows, they're all obviously animal haters. We're the only ones who really care
 I'm afraid Thor has gone to great lengths and his post simply stinks of envy.
 Remember these people that you criticise have also worked hard all their lives and deserve to enjoy their retirement how they choose ....  one day you may be lucky enough to retire to a beautiful place like Kalkan, for now however you'll just have to enjoy your shopping trips to Waitrose without tripping over endless dogs with no testicles .... you'll have to reserve that particular pleasure for when you holiday in Kalkan.

[Lantana]

Sorry Hel66 you have got it completely wrong. 

Thor has lived here for more than 20 years.  Lives in a stunning, environmentally sound, stone house,  with the smallest carbon footprint of anybody I know, built almost entirely by hand in natural materials,  (no concrete here) using techniques which have flourished here for centuries.  Gardens entirely organically, has lovingly restored feilds and pastures, planted trees, restored dry stone walls, lives in harmony with Turksih neighbours having taken the time to become completely fluent in Turkish, does indeed look after the stray dogs which arrive at the door in the night, gives generously to Kapsa, has improved the living conditions of so many animals by helping to educate neighbours on the wisdom of neutering, does not have a swimming pool as a lifestyle choice because of care and concern for the environment and our ever dwindling resources and is a much admired and respected member of the community here.

Thor has witnessed the proliferation of unchecked buildings, the spread of concrete, the loss of olive trees, the destruction of the countryside and the steady rise in the number of tourists which on the whole has brought few positive benefits to the average Turkish resident  in Kalkan.

I am very proud to consider Thor a friend, a person who absolutely lives by and sticks to their principles and is always prepared to tell the truth no matter how much unfounded criticism might follow.

Perhaps you would like to reconsider your post?

Lantana

Lantana

[hel66]

No Lantana I think I'll leave it on for all those who are thinking of contributing money towards a dog problem in a place they are not living.
   

[Buster]

In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning and storms.

As you know him so well Lantana could you have a word with him about this awful weather? 

[Lantana]

Very good point Buster, hadn't associated the two but you're right, there must be some reason for the truly awful weather.  Will have a word. Having had snow and such violent hailstorms that my greenhouse was smashed this week,  any intervention that might bring out the sun would be welcome.

Lantana

[amber]

hel66 - Is it you that has a problem with someone from Kapsa feeding animals outside your house? If they are feeding in an unsuitable or inconvenient place I am sure they would feed the animals somewhere nearby.Have you asked them to do so? Maybe there is a language problem but you can always send a email to Kapsa or a message to me.If its one of your friends,please ask them to do the same.
Kapsa try very hard to work within the Turkish animal laws but we also care about Kalkan and people.

[Queenie]

O yeh and then squawked on about the UK's policy of dealing with street animals....' 'When are they going to introduce a policy of neuter and return, my God, it's so inhumane, all those poor unwanted dogs being put into dog's  homes  and then humanely put to sleep.... IT'S A DISGRACE...why can't we be like Turkey and put them back on the streets to roam around.

Hel66 -  You seem to be missing the point in everything that KAPSA have tried, tirelessly, to explain time and time again! Turkey's law, IS to put the animals back on the street after they've been neutered and NOT put them in a home like the UK!! Like it or lump it, this is how it is in TURKEY. Whatever happens in the UK is WHOLLY IRRELEVANT!!!!!

[amber]

It is very difficult to compare what happens in the UK to what happens in Turkey.The culture is different,religion is different,peoples attitudes and thinking are different and the laws are different.They will never been the same in our lifetimes I am sure - and should they be??