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Author Topic: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199  (Read 50125 times)

Offline kalkanview

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2012, 05:09:24 PM »
I am surprised that anything that happened 100 years ago could be relevant now.

Of course the dogs in Kalkan will not be starving because there are plenty of people who would want to feed them in their new environment.  Ditto in a lot of other places.

Kalkan after the new rules will be a cleaner, safer and more successful resort so I hope the new regulations go through.  The dogs will also be safer.

My wife will also allow me to buy a scooter since I won't get chased by the dogs, which is an experience you really don't want to have.

Offline Irene

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2012, 08:43:05 PM »
Shame on you - I would far rather be greeted by a dog than that irritating 'put put' sound of an irritating scooter that echoes around the peace and tranquility of Kalkan.   I found the whole potential fate of the poor dogs of Kalkan a despairing scenario.  Well done Saskia,  how you put up with the most irritating of responses of the 'few' on this forum is beyond me - your tireless work and fortitude is truly admirable.

Offline kalkanbelle

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2012, 12:46:19 AM »
Irene - I second that and anyone who really thinks that this is the 'humane' answer to rid the streets of dogs and cats is sadly misguided.  If you really don't like living or visiting a place where there are street animals then why not live or visit somewhere else?  You have a choice the animals don't.  I am fed up of KAPSA being put down for the good work they do.  They are a voluntary organisation without any help from the authorities financial or otherwise who are only doing their best to feed and care for these unfortunate animals.  If Kalkan became a place that turned a blind eye to the suffering of animals in order to keep the streets free of them I would not want to be a part of it.  Sadly it would not be the same place I fell in love with.

Offline amber

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2012, 08:29:51 AM »
The problem is the dogs and maybe cats too would not be taken to RSPCA type centres (they dont exıst here) but to remote forest areas where nobody would be able to check on them or care for them.

There would be no need for education about neutering etc because why bother to neuter when the pups and kittens can be dumped on the street and someone will come along and dump them in the forest for you.The authorities are unable/unwilling to look after the animals they have already put in shelters.TNR has been proven to work in areas like Fethıye where the authories and volunteers work together to follow the current laws.There is no question these forests will become death camps for the animals and the streets wıll have a constant supply of animals to fill them because it certainly wont stop them being dumped on the streets.So it wont be quite as out of sight out of mind as some would like!!!

There are 1000s and 1000s of signatures and words of dismay on petitions all over the country and hıgh level protests in Turkey and overseas.Lets hope someone is listening.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 08:31:23 AM by amber »

Offline kalkanview

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2012, 09:55:09 AM »
No shame on me, comparing scooters with dogs is clearly erroneous.

Firstly Scooters do not normally keep you awake at night, secondly taking scooters away from Kalkan will not help anyone or the economy.  They are obviously the only transport the majority of locals can afford and furthermore the chasing from dogs is a serious accident waiting to happen.

Also my views on dogs is not based on my own circumstances, I love the place and its people and it remains a paradise, I am truly fortunate to be able to enjoy a good part of the year at my second home here.  My motivation is achieving a secure financial future for the lovely people of Kalkan and to support those responsible dogs owners who want their pets to have a fulfilling life in this town without perpetual fear from attack.

Kalkan is selling an upmarket product and is in competition with local areas such as Kas and Fethiye where there are less feral dogs.

You appear to prefer the risk of damaging this town and its people by adopting policies which encourage more animals to be dumped here then allowing these feral dogs to roam free rather than be controlled in an area where they can be looked after properly (and yes if they are looked after on the streets then why on earth can't they can be looked after in a controlled area?) and paradoxically the dogs will be safer themselves.  You may have noticed some recent incidents of poisonings which is the inhumane method of culling used in the past and illustrates the increasing tensions here between humans and feral dogs. 

So in my view the "death camp" headline is misleading and a gross exaggeration and the implementation of the new proposals whilst Kapsa continue their good work with local education etc, is the best of both worlds creating safe and healthy animals with safe and happy humans.

Offline amber

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2012, 11:54:47 AM »
If you think the "death camp" heading is misleading please tell me what these remote "forest" places will be really like.

You have hit the nail on the head re Kas and Fethiye.Less street dogs,at the moment, in both but for different reasons.Fethiye for their TNR and temp shelter policy and Kas for a now overflowing dog "sanctuary".Fethiye will continue that way but Kas will have increasing numbers of dogs remaining on the streets.

Kalkan has tried hard to follow the Fethiye model which is the law and with the introduction of a temporary shelter in Kalkan the same results can be achieved over time.

If the new law comes into force we will still see new animals on the streets until they are rounded up and taken to these very remote "forest areas".This new law wont do anything to stop the dumping of animals.

Offline saskia

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2012, 12:10:45 PM »
Kalkanview if you are really concerned about the negative effect the present dogs have on tourism İ suggest you read the comments people have written on the various petitions flying around about these changes. Hundreds if not thousands of people (tourists) are stating that they will not return to Turkey again if these changes go through. Also to think that there will be no more dogs on the streets is niave. There will be - only they will be different ones because until the government start to enforce these laws ( whichever law) villages will still dump their unwanted dogs and pups in touristic areas. İf the government had enforced the original 5199 in 2004 and made ever belediye baskani and Muhtar abide by it there would probably be less than 20 stray dogs altogether in the whole of Kalkan now!
www.kapsa.co.uk official website also see Friends of Kapsa on facebook http://www.facebook.com/

Offline happy days

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2012, 06:55:55 AM »
You have to admire Kalkanview for sticking with this one. In every debate on street animals it does appear that if you say anything anti then you are naive, dont know what your talking about, hate animals, missing the point, cant spell, your grammar is poor, etc etc.

Most people would have buckled under the negative feedback to their posting, but not Kalaknview it would appear?

In fact when you actually read what Kalknaview is saying they are none of the above. Kalkanview has expressed a balanced view on I guess what many others believe to be the situation in Kalkan but are too afraid to say because of the barrage of  abuse that comes their way.

I guess in posting this comment in support of Kalaknview, i will be tagged as an animal hater. Truth is that is far from the case.

The thing is I have a sneeky suspicion that Kalaknview may indeed represent the silent majority of opinion on this issue.

Offline saskia

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2012, 07:34:39 AM »
Sorry happy days but actually İ think it is the other way round. When we disagree with anyone we get accused of 'shooting them down in flames' or similar and now the latest 'barrage of abuse'
Actually İ try to remain as calm and polite at possible dispite the insults that are often flung at us by a few people on here. İf saying someone is 'rather niave' is a huge insult in your eyes then İ appologise.

Offline kalkanview

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2012, 08:58:24 AM »
Thank you for your post happydays, I am also not a dog hater I am only wishing to express an opinion and yes it is disappointing when some members resort to rudeness.

If you want to gauge the views of the "silent majority" then I would suggest the "thank you" count on EK is a reasonable indicator and this implies far more people want (humane) action on the number of roaming dogs in Kalkan.

Also to quickly enhance the point about financial well being.  A UK travel agent told me personally earlier this year that they were particularly disappointed with both the feedback from clients and their own experience relating to the number of roaming dogs found on their visit this year and was returning to the UK seriously reconsidering their recommendation of Kalkan, after years of successful business here.
 
Worryingly I heard a rumour yesterday about a recent potentially serious incident involving dogs,  I will not mention further until it is verified but if other members have details including Kapsa then perhaps they can let us know. 

Offline Firecat

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2012, 10:47:39 AM »
I don't tend to post on these threads as I know how messy they can get with all the muck slinging, but I cannot sit on my hands any longer regarding this issue and specifically the views expressed regarding the government's proposals. I am absolutely incredulous that anyone would seriously support the idea of rounding up all dogs, transporting them to a wilderness far, far away and dumping them there to fend for themselves just so Kalkan dwellers can create their own private utopia and preserve the all important impression of being 'upmarket'. Do you realise how crass and shallow you sound? We are speaking of living creatures here, sentient beings. There is nothing remotely 'humane' about the current proposals when the outcome will be to force these animals into a - no pun intended - 'dog eat dog' society where only the strongest survive. The animals will succumb to hunger, disease and injury but hey, out of sight out of mind so why should the villa owners and holidaymakers of Kalkan care? If you seriously believe that the intention is to create some sort of lovely, fluffy, doggy parkland with safe shelter, smiling wardens feeding the animals and vets on standby to deal with health needs then you are utterly, utterly deluded.  Instead these animals will be left to die, and those that don't will, out of simple survival instinct, form wolf-like packs to terrorise each other and possibly neighbouring villages. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous. The current proposals fall so far short of a genuinely humane solution it's laughable. I am not saying that street animals should be left either to their own devices or to charitable organisations to care for but there should be smaller, publicly funded and more local solutions combined with education and enforcement. There is no overnight solution - or at least no humane one - but if there was a commitment to tackling the issues over the long term then it should be possible to achieve a satisfactory status quo for the residents, holidaymakers, property owners and businesspeople of Kalkan as well as for the animals.
Cat on a hot tin roof

Offline saskia

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2012, 11:35:02 AM »
İ think the thank you count is a very nice way to show appreciation on ek but İ hardly think you can base statistics on it. There are various petitions out allowing people to show their dismay (to put it politely) over the governments plans. As far as İ know they have been signed by approximately 95,000 people. Hundreds of visitors to Kalkan heve also signed it. So İ'm not sure that 66 thank yous on EK really reprisent the silent majority. Sorry but it doesn't add up. İ speak to tourists EVERYDAY about the animals and Kapsa, İ don't go out on the street looking for them, they come to me, and İ can honestly say that 99% say they are so pleased the animals are looked after, and that that is one of the reasons they keep returning to Kalkan. Of course you don't need to believe this - its a free world. But another thing İ hear from almost every person that has been coming to Kalkan for ove 5 years is that there are far fewer cats and dogs on the streets than there used to be. Have a nice day everyone.

Offline kalkanview

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2012, 11:59:37 AM »
firecat, I am merely expressing the views of a significant number of people including Turks who unlike you have spent a decent amount of time here and although I accept that Kapsa do of course have the best of intentions the methods for control have simply not worked. 

It's unfortunate your tone directed at me is rather unpleasant it's as though I came up with the proposals myself!

It reminds me of several other members who have been in my position before and given up after being pilloried by the "dog mafia".  This has clearly discouraged others to get involved and I am convinced public opinion is against the current rules.

I respect your passion for the animals and would appreciate the same from you and other members.

Your prognosis for the dogs in Kalkan is in my view an exaggeration although I accept none of us know the precise details.

Are you suggesting that Kapsa will be disbanding in the near future so will be unable to continue supporting the dogs if the proposals proceed?

Saskia, I am not just referring to my "thank you" count.  If you look at the scores for the contributors on both sides there is a clear conclusion to be made.

Offline itstime

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2012, 12:11:25 PM »
 Returned from Kalkan late last night and at the risk of repeating myself yet again I've been visiting Kalkan for 16 years and shudder when I recall the plight of the dogs and cats back then. They were invariably malnourished, unkempt and in many cases suffering with some form of illness. Over the years I have been heartened to witness a huge change and now see healthier animals who have become part of the core of the town. I've seen many local people develop a huge affection for these animals and children grow to understand and respect their fellow occupants of the town.
I've come to know many people both Turkish and foreign who work tirelessly and with great compassion to ensure that animals and people can co-exist as harmoniously as possible, reduce suffering and cruelty and promote a culture of respect for all creatures.How they keep doing this in a background of sniping, rumour mongering and downright selfish self interest at times baffles me, although I am so grateful that they do.
I shudder when I hear comments about Kalkan being some kind of upmarket preserve for the privileged and frankly will lose no sleep if those kind of people choose not to return as there will be many many others who will continue to visit and enjoy the many delights of this amazing town. Frankly I have no wish to breathe the same air as people who would condone downright barbarism to any creature

Offline kalkanview

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2012, 12:31:29 PM »
Ditto my previous post especially relating to unpleasantness, respect for other people's views and exaggeration.

I do not rent my villa so have no vested interest but there are a lot of people who have invested large sums in this town and they will be pleased that you wish Kalkan to become an animal sanctuary.

Offline itstime

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2012, 12:47:15 PM »
Sorry but I don't recall making any such suggestion and have no idea why you would reach that conclusion.

Offline happy days

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2012, 12:48:26 PM »
Sorry to say but the last few contributions just confirm very clearly the point i made in an earlier post. Speak up against animals in Kalkan and abuse will almost certainly come your way! Kalkanview - it is a great pity that your contribution has resulted in personal abuse.  After all you are only expressing your opinion.

Perhaps time to call it a day?


Offline itstime

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2012, 01:21:11 PM »
I am shocked at this response. Where did I personally abuse anyone? I made no reference to any individual whatsoever.
Maybe it is time to move on as is usual people will never agree. But be under no illusion I have absolutely not "personally abused" any individual

Offline misty

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2012, 05:19:48 PM »
Why don't we just ban all discussions on dogs.....it seems to only cause friction and do people really want to see the forum taken over by this....

Offline saskia

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Re: GOVERNMENT PROPOSES POPULAR CHANGES TO ANIMAL WELFARE BILL 5199
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2012, 05:54:51 PM »
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-293845-thousands-march-against-amendment-to-animal-protection-law.html
Thousands of animal rights activists marched against a draft law on Sunday that would make changes to Turkey's Animal Protection Law No. 5199, seeking to introduce practices currently used in other countries such as collecting stray animals from the streets and euthanizing members of the “excess” population.
More than 10,000 people marched in İstanbul's Taksim neighborhood, and many others walked in 13 other cities, in protest of the planned changes
The thousands who gathered in Taksim, mostly in black outfits, on Sunday afternoon shared his message: Turks will not give up their stray animals to be isolated or euthanized. There were simultaneous protests in 13 other cities, although officials have mostly been silent on the matter. Photos of the crowded Taksim Square and demonstrations in other cities were posted on Twitter by participants, with two animal rights-related hashtags taking second and third place -- after the AK Party congress -- on Twitter's trending topics list for Turkey for much of the day.

I think we all need to remember that Kalkan is infact still part of Turkey. The marches today show how strongly Turkish people feel about the proposed changes to the animal rights bill 5199. They surely have more right to show their feelings than the
Quote
silent majority
in Kalkan!!


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